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Halifax LK 839 NP-S

Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: EddieFell
Time Stamp:
16:45:21 Sunday, August 1, 2004
Post:
The above aircraft was lost on return from Kiel, 16/17 August 1944.

The crew (ref. Chorley)were

F/O. WBT Rosen RCAF

Sgt. FW Crawley RCAF

Sgt. J.J. Grant RCAF

Sgt. A.H. Woolfrey RAFVR

Sgt. K.T. Bielby RCAF

Sgt. E.G. Beard RCAF

Sgt. G.W. Blanckley RAFVR

CWGC has

J/28758 F/O. Walter Bigelow Rosen RCAF

J/89905 P/O. Frederick William Crawley RCAF

J/89906 P/O. John Joseph Grant RCAF

1678701 Sgt. Allen Henry Woolfrey RAFVR

J/89968 P/O. Keith Thomas Bielby RCAF

J/89967 P/O. Edwin George Beard RCAF

1865666 Sgt. George William Blanckley RAFVR

Can anybody help with the following

Did Rosen have 2 or 3 forenames

Were the Canadians posthumously commissioned (or before)

(I do not have BCL 45 so cannot check if Chorley amended his info.)

It seems this may have been the first mission for this crew. Can anybody confirm.

In fact any further information about the crew and/or the crash would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Eddie

PS I do not live that far from the crash site and the cause of the accident is the subject of some debate. Some say it hit the local church first, others that it was trying to land (very) short of the Lissett runway and another that it came down from height. Correct version anybody?

E



RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: floyd williston (Guest)
Time Stamp:
17:14:39 Sunday, August 1, 2004
Post:
According to They Shall Grow Not Old:

F/O Walter Bigelow Tower Rosen was from New York and died the day after the crash.

The four P/Os are listed as such. The aircraft was in contact with the control tower before the crash.

(Floyd)



RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: EddieFell
Time Stamp:
17:20:21 Sunday, August 1, 2004
Post:
Cheers Floyd

Grant is shown by CWGC as Air Gunner. Chorley indicates Air Bomber which seems favourite. Can you confirm?

Eddie


RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: John Williams. (Guest)
Time Stamp:
21:59:45 Sunday, August 1, 2004
Post:
Hi Eddie,

I checked 'In Brave Company' by Bill Chorley and he does not give much more information than in BC Losses 1944 only to add that it was coming in to land and that it broke into two large sections. There is no correction in BC Losses 1945.

John.


RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: EddieFell
Time Stamp:
22:19:40 Sunday, August 1, 2004
Post:
Thanks John

The indication in the '77 edition is that the fuselage was in one piece but one of the engines separated. It seems that it was probably an undershoot (at a guess at least 2 miles) since it was already in the circuit but what caused the crash (engine problems, loss of height/stall etc) may not be known - there were no witnesses - unless the accident report/loss card has anything mechanical to add. I'll try to find out.

Eddie


RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: floyd williston (Guest)
Time Stamp:
01:09:18 Wednesday, September 1, 2004
Post:
According to They Shall Grow Not Old, P/O John Joseph Grant (Vancouver, BC) age 22 was the BA. Bielby was just 19, young for a P/O.

(Floyd)


RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: John Williams (Guest)
Time Stamp:
22:34:30 Wednesday, September 1, 2004
Post:
Hi Eddie,

I know that area, my uncle flew with 158 Sqn in August 1943 and I have been to the airfield a copule of times, they were lost on Ops over Berlin on 23/24 August 1943.

Cheers,

John.


RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: HughAHalliday
Time Stamp:
01:31:14 Friday, October 1, 2004
Post:
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 10-Jan-04 AT 01:33 AM (GMT)[/font][p]"Were the Canadians posthumously commissioned (or before)?"

The RCAF sought to commission aircrew on a liberal basis, either at the time of qualifying for an aircrew badge (such as a WAG badge) or thereafter. This became particularly pronounced after January 1943. It was not uncommon for RCAF aircrew, having qualified for a badge, to go overseas as Sergeants and then be promoted at six-month intervals, with commissioning occuring anywhere from eight to 22 months after arriving overseas. If one were a "bad boy" one might lose seniority or be overlooked when commissions were granted - otherwise, aircrew were commissioned fairly liberally.

HOWEVER, the process of commissioning was peculiar in that when a commission was granted, it was usually backdated to be effective from an earlier date. This meant that an RCAF Order dated 1 September 1944 might report that FS John Doe had been commissioned WITH EFFECT from 1 July 1944. That meant, of course, that John Doe not only got his commission but two months back pay as an officer with which to celebrate.

So, a man might be killed wearing NCO rank badges, yet be commissioned and duly recorded in CWGC documents as being an officer. Andrew Mynarski baled out of a Lancaster on 12 June 1944 wearing Warrant Officer rank - but months later (before his fate was known to RCAF authorities) he was commissioned with effect from 10 or 11 June 1944 - and so his VC (awarded 1946) was recorded as being to P/O Andrew Mynarski. It would be proper to say that he had been commissioned RETROACTIVELY, but not promoted "posthumously".

Clear as mud, eh ?



RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: EddieFell
Time Stamp:
12:04:50 Friday, October 1, 2004
Post:
Hi Hugh

Many thanks for the background info. When I read info like that I'm always relieved that I'm not as thick as I thought I might have been!!

Hi John

I would be interested in any info you may have about your uncle. I have bits on the crew of P/O James which went down on the same mission and am trying to gather anything I can on members of 158 Squadron. Could you contact me at my E Mail address?

Thanks again to all who responded.

Cheers

Eddie


RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: John Williams (Guest)
Time Stamp:
23:28:29 Friday, October 1, 2004
Post:
Hi Eddie,

I am not a member, drop me an email at jwilliams.A T.pnc.com.au

Cheers,

John.


RE: Halifax LK 839 NP-S
Author: Greg
Time Stamp:
15:50:52 Friday, January 2, 2004
Post:
Eddie,

I've got a crash card for this Halibag coming to me from the RAF Museum at this very moment. Drop me an email to gregATgreg-harrison.co.uk (.A T. instead of AT)with your postal address, and i'll copy it for you and get it off in the post as soon as it arrives :)

L/O

Greg

"You can take the boy out of Wales,

But you can't take Wales out of the boy..."