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flying training in South Africa

flying training in South Africa
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
09:47:46 Sunday, October 29, 2006
Post:
hello,

I'm in touch with the son of a R.A.F. navigator, Frank LIVELY, who was killed in action in June 1944 and is buried in Esquelbecq, south of Dunkirk.

In the record of service of Frank Lively, there is very few details about his navigator and air gunner training, apart that it was in South Africa and I'm not very knowledgable about training in that country. The only information I extracted are :

45 AS/SA on 23 January 1943

43 AS on 1st May 1943

43 AGC (Air Gunnery Course ?).

His son also tells me that his father may have been to New-York, he must check in the family papers but I'm puzzled by this.

Many thanks in advance for any help from a member of the board.

Cheers

Joss


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: EddieFell
Time Stamp:
12:01:21 Sunday, October 29, 2006
Post:
Joss

43 Air School was at Port Alfred, South Africa.

48 Air School was at East London, Cape Province

42 Air School was at Port Elizabeth, South Africa

45 Air School was at Oudtshoorn

It was normal for ships to route through New York particularly if they were heading for Canada and further training

Hope this helps

Eddie


thanks for your help
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
17:47:44 Sunday, October 29, 2006
Post:
hello Eddie,

Many thanks for your help, I had only found confirmation of 43 Air School at Port Alfred, but nothing about the others.

It is also my opinion that the ship's route might have been a run from South Africa to New-York and another from New-York to U.K.. No mention of training either in Canada or in the U.S. in the record of service.

Joss


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Régis Decobeck (Guest)
Time Stamp:
17:49:26 Sunday, October 29, 2006
Post:
Hi Joss,

This is not a question relating to the flying training in South Africa : are you aware that a Spitfire XII crashed on 1st September 1944 near Esquelbecq, the pilot Peter Graham parachuted down and was made POW ? Do you know the exact location ?

Rgds.

Rgis


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
11:33:47 Monday, October 30, 2006
Post:
hello,

Apart from the Lancaster which came down in June 1944 in Esquelbecq, I have very basic locations of two fighters fallen in the village, but no precise details, as often from statements from local people. In one case, no information about the pilot, about the others, the pilot bailed out, his parachute got caught in some trees and he was captured by the Germans.

I have to check the Gendarmerie reports for the Dunkirk area during my next session(s) in the Gendarmerie archives in Paris, as I've concentrated in other areas so far. So there may be a report which would give a location (even if it's only the village) and a date. I already have some police and/or gendarmerie reports for that area, but the files in the Lille archives are not complete. In the 50es or 60es, orders have been given to destroy the 'old papers'. Some obeyed and now we have lost these informations, and in other places, the order was not followed and we can be lucky to peruse through these old documents. Between declarations of pigs stolen at night, and other similar papers, we can sometimes find a few lines about the downing of a plane and the fate of the pilot/crew.

I'll also add this name to the list of the PoW questionnaires I'll have to check during my next visit to Kew.

Several Spitfires were lost in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais on the 1st of September 1944.

Joss


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Régis Decobeck (Guest)
Time Stamp:
14:16:57 Monday, October 30, 2006
Post:
Hi Joss,

According to his memory, F/O Peter Graham from 41 Sqn was hit by Flak while attacking a train in the St Omer area. He was losing glycol, so in a very short time his engine seized up. He landed in a large tree and his parachute caught in a branch. He swung wildly upwards and the branch broke. He fell heavily at the foot of the tree. He was immediately arrested by a Wehrmacht sidecar driver. A few minutes later they entered into the nearby village of Esquelbecq... So it seems he was one of your 2 Spit pilots.

Rgds.

Rgis


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
14:50:45 Monday, October 30, 2006
Post:
Hello Rgis,

The "tree" details seems to lead to the conclusion that indeed he may be one of the two fighter pilots who came down in Esquelbecq. The other is totally unrelated and I think this event occured much sooner.

Is Peter Graham still alive ? If so are you in touch with him ? And if so again, could you put me in contact with him ? You can contact me directly at

JossLeclercqATaol.com (replace by the obvious).

Cheers

Joss


Peter Graham
Author: allanoftruro
Time Stamp:
13:01:48 Saturday, February 11, 2006
Post:
Hello Joss

Peter Graham has written his life story, pre-war, war and post-war entitled "Skypilot memoirs from take off to landing" ISBN 1-85821-909-4 (Pentland Books). and the details of his parachute landing basically match up to those you have already been given by Regis.

His 'chute had caught on a tree and after he had disengaged from it he writes "...ran for a gap I could see in the hedge around the field, hoping that at least I could get some distance from the 'chute before trying to hide somewhere. I plunged through the gap to be confronted immediately by a Wehrmacht motorcycle combination. The driver was just getting off and promptly pointed his rifle in my direction....an even more unlikely scene opened up before me a few minutes later while one of my captors marched me into the nearby village of Esquelbecq."

I last heard from Peter a few years ago - your best bet, unless Regis has been in contact recently, is to contact Steve Brew, either directly if you know his e-mail address or via his website http://brew.clients.ch/RAF41Sqdn.htm, which has a contact link on it.

cheers

Allan


RE: Peter Graham
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
16:50:47 Saturday, February 11, 2006
Post:
Hello Allan,

Rgis provided off-board some scans of the pages of that book. He gave my details to Peter Graham who should contact me if he wants too.

I've been in touch with Steve Brew in the past, either about this uncle Bill who came down in my research area, or for others 41 Squadron members who came down in northern France. Until Rgis posted in this thread, I wasn't aware of the case of Peter Graham, as the secondary sources (FCL volume 3, Air-Britain MA100-MZ999 or Spitfire the History) all gives the crash site as Belgium or even Netherlands ! I reckon that that Esquelbecq sounds Flemish, and is actually in the Maritime Flanders area in northern France. I remember interviewing elderly people in that area, and I had to rely on someone to translate from Flemish to French !

I'll try to get a copy of that book through abebooks or else.

Cheers

Joss


RE: Peter Graham
Author: allanoftruro
Time Stamp:
20:14:45 Saturday, February 11, 2006
Post:
Hello Joss

Mine came from Peter himself - and is autographed!! A very interesting person who has dedicated his life to God after leaving the RAF.

Take a look at "The pilots" part of Steve's website and under the photo of Peter, 3 rows down, middle picture, is his e-mail address!!

I have looked for Esquelbecq on AutoRoute and it is in Nord Pas-de-Calais with, to my english eyes, Flemish looking place names around it!!

cheers

Allan


RE: Peter Graham
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
18:37:39 Saturday, March 11, 2006
Post:
hello Allan,

I had already checked that but Rgis told me that this e-mail adress is out-of-date.

All the names in that area are Flemish. In northern France we have more common points with the Belgians than we have with Frenchmen from southern France !

joss


RE: Peter Graham
Author: SteveBrew
Time Stamp:
10:24:30 Tuesday, April 11, 2006
Post:
Hi Joss

Yes, Peter Graham is very much still with us; I had contact with him only this past week. He changed his e-mail address only recently, so if you'd like to contact him, please e-mail me off-board and I'll give you his e-mail address.

In regard to the other points raised above,

1. Rgis bought Peter's last copy of "Skypilot" only in the last few weeks, so unless you can find a second-hand copy of it on the 'net, info from Rgis, Allan, or myself are your best bet.

2. Peter says Esquelbecq was indeed where he came down as he's since been there (though how recent, I don't know) and met locals who remembered him

3. I have Peter's POW repat form, so if you would like a scanned copy, please let me know. In fact, I have copies of the reports for all 41 Squadron POWs, so please let me know if you'd like copies of any of these: TNA WO344, pieces 8/2 (A. S. Appleton), 29/1 (C. R. Birbeck), 39/2 (W. A. Brew), 47/1 (A. L. Bull), 60/1 (R. L. Chapman), 95/2 (G. G. F. Draper), 123/1 (P. B. Graham), 132/2 (R. P. Harding), 139/2 (D. Haywood), 141/2 (D. J. V. Henry), 146/1 (R. M. Hoare), 242/2 (W. Palmer), 244/2 (H. L. Parry), 259 (L. A. Prickett), 290/2 (T. A. H. Slack), 298/2 (T. Spencer), 301/1 (W. A. Stapleton), 314/1 (D. F. J. Tebbit), 329/1 (H. A. Wagner), 347/1 (M. G. Williams), & 327/1 (A. van Rood).

Kind regards

Steve


RE: Peter Graham
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
11:48:16 Tuesday, April 11, 2006
Post:
Hello Steve

Will contact you off board. I remember sending you the WO344 file for your late uncle last year actually. Indeed, several of these men came down in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais. I also saw Hugh Parry at Duxford on 2nd September 2006 where he was signing books, but didn't have the opportunity to talk to him.

I'm surprised to read that he's been back to Esquelbecq, as my main contact there, who is the president or secretary of the local society which maintains the souvenir of a 1940 massacre against English troops, wasn't aware of that. He's usually informed of all the visits of English people in the village, most being related to the massacre.

Joss

Thanks

Joss


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: melaniejane
Time Stamp:
09:42:26 Monday, October 30, 2006
Post:
Hi Joss

Your Mr Lively was at 43 Air School Port Alfred soon after the (South African) uncle I have been researching, W/O Harland Benn who was there 12.12.42 to 13.02.43 and qualified on Course 11/12. Do you need any further info about 43 or 45 AS? (The latter is fairly near to Port Elizabeth - about 1 and a half hours drive - perhaps I can return your Fontaine favour!!!) Or do you need some SAAF connections to help you?

regards

Mel Herman


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
11:24:46 Monday, October 30, 2006
Post:
Hello Mel,

I'm just trying to find some details to put some flesh on the bones on the service career of Frank Lively, and I prefer to give full title and location rather that just stating acronyms/unit numbers in a text.

I don't want to trouble you with details about No. 45 Air School, but if you can find some, I'll be happy to send them over to Michael, Frank Lively's son.

I hope you're all right, and that perhaps you'll be able to come over to Fontaine-l'Etalon ?

Cheers

Joss



RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: melaniejane
Time Stamp:
07:16:51 Saturday, February 11, 2006
Post:
Hi Joss!

I will try to get some more detail for you. Do you want 43 (Port Alfred) and 45 (Oudtshoorn) or only the latter?

Am still hoping to get to Fontaine one of these days - you'll be the first to know!

regards

Mel



RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
12:29:43 Saturday, February 11, 2006
Post:
Hello Mel,

He was posted to both, but seems to have spent more time at No. 45 A.S., and about a month only at No. 43 A.S. in Port Alfred. I've seen from a Google search that the latter is still an active airfield with a flying school. Any help welcome but don't go through much efforts for that. The family will already be happy to be able to have a full name and be able to see on an atlas where Frank Lively has been during his training.

Hope to see you one day in Fontaine-l'Etalon...

Joss



RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Alex Crawford (Guest)
Time Stamp:
11:09:52 Monday, December 11, 2006
Post:
Hi,

Sorry to butt in on this thread but I have a training related questions.

Does anyone have some details about 2 FTS and 16 SFTS? I think they may have been based in Kenya but I'm not 100% sure. I am interested in the time when both units operated Hawker Harts, Hinds and Audaxes.

Any info would be appreciated.

Alex



RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: allanoftruro
Time Stamp:
11:23:40 Monday, December 11, 2006
Post:
Hi Alex

A look in "RAF Flying Training and Support units" by Sturtivant, Hamlin & Halley for both 2 FTS and 16 FTS (SFTS seems to start at 17) only appears to show UK bases.

Hope this helps?

Allan


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: SteveBrew
Time Stamp:
12:19:20 Monday, December 11, 2006
Post:
Hi Alex

According to Lake's "Flying Units of the RAF", 2 FTS was formed at Duxford on 27 April 1920, by redesignating 31 Training School. They were officially disbanded at Digby on 15 December 1933, although operations were already ceased on 29 July 1933. During this period, they flew DH9A, F2B, Snipe, Avro 504K & 504N, Vimy, Grebe II, Gamecock I, Siskin IIIA, Siskin IIID, Moth, Atlas, Atlas Trainer, Fairey IIIF and Tomtit aircraft.

2 FTS was reformed at Digby on 1 October 1934, and redesignated 2 SFTS from 3 September 1939. During this period they flew Tutor, Hart, Hart Trainer, Hart Special, Fury, and Audax aircraft.

I see no mention of Kenya in regard to 2 FTS.

According to the same work, 16 SFTS was formed at Hucknall on 9 June 1941 by redesignating 1 (Polish) FTS. It was disbanded on 1 November 1945 by redesignating to 16 (Polish) FTS. During this period (and up to April 1946) they flew Hind, Battle, Battle Trainer, Moth Minor, Master I, Master II, Gipsy Moth, Blenheim I, Oxford I, Anson I, Magister and Harvard IIB aircraft.

Again, no mention of Kenya.

Hope this is of help

Regards

Steve


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Murland
Time Stamp:
12:23:12 Monday, December 11, 2006
Post:
Alex, according to 'Flying Units of the RAF' 16 SFTS was formed in 1941 at Hucknall, flying Hinds, Battles, Masters, etc.

Jerry


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Alex Crawford (Guest)
Time Stamp:
12:44:00 Monday, December 11, 2006
Post:
Hi Guys,

Thanks for your replies. I have Lakes' 'Flying Units of the RAF.' I think these two units were actually South African. For example Audax K7428 was shipped to South Africa as 1856 for service with 2 FTS, it was also used by 237 Wing. It was later SOC 31/10/43.

I know a lot of training schools were set up in South Africa, Southern Rhodesia and possbly Kenya. From what I have gathered so far some 82 Audaxes, 110-120 Hinds and 215 Harts served in the SAAF mostly with training schools such as 2 FTS, 16 SFTS, 2 AS (Air School?), 21 AS, 65 AS and 69 AS.

Just trying to get an idea of where these units were based and for how long. Anyone know if there is a series of books that deals with SAAF serials similar in style to the Air Britain series?

Alex



RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Murland
Time Stamp:
14:06:37 Monday, December 11, 2006
Post:
There were certainly no Harts and Hinds at 6 Air School or at 27 Air School - both in South Africa. By 1942 most if not all the EMFTS schools had Tiger moths and the SFTS Schools such at 27 had Masters and then the Harvard. Have you read ' by Aircrew Unlimited'by John Golley? He memtions 25 EFTS at Belvedere nr, Sailsbury, Rhod', 22 SFTS, Gwelo, 21 SFTS at Bulawayo, 27 EFTS at N'Thabusinduna, 4 FTS at Heany, 5 FTS at Thornhill (and refers to a total of eight flying schools plus a bombing and gunnery school.) Later a school of flying instruction was added. He lists the aircraft used in the Commonwealth Air Training plan, no mention of Hinds or Harts. He makes no mention of Kenya as a venue for CATP air schools and I don't think there were any there, but I could be wrong.

Jerry


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: allanoftruro
Time Stamp:
15:50:13 Monday, December 11, 2006
Post:
Hi Alex

I can find no evidence that 2FTS or 16FTS (not 16SFTS) ever existed in any form in South Africa, or Kenya, both Lake and Sturtivant show only a UK (RAF) existence. I note you state "I think these two units were actually South African......used by 237 Wing." 237 Wing is shown as being formed at Mosul and disbanded at Mehrabad (Teheran) in Feb 43. Then reformed in Limassol and disbanded at Matruh West when it was redesignated RAF Matruh West in Feb '44 - it held 15 SAAF squadron, but no other SA connection that I can see.

I have checked the official South African Air Force website http://www.af.mil.za/ and this is what it has to say about training schools. Unfortunately it does not give their service number, aircraft used or location. However, I am sure that they would advise you of the units involved in WW2 training if you asked?

JATS

The real breakthrough came in 1940, however, with the establishment of the Joint Air Training Scheme (JATS) under which the Royal Air Force (RAF), SAAF and other Allied air and ground crews were trained at 38 South African-based air schools. Under this scheme the SAAF began to burgeon and blossom, and by September 1941 the total number of military aircraft in the Union had increased to 1 709, while the personnel strength had leapt to 31 204 - 956 of whom were pilots. The JATS was ultimately to turn out a total of 33 347 air crew, including 12 221 SAAF personnel, during its five year existence.

FTSU does cover two training schools in the Rhodesian Group and several in Canada and India, but nothing South African or Kenyan.

cheers

Allan



RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Alex Crawford (Guest)
Time Stamp:
18:01:39 Monday, December 11, 2006
Post:
Hi Jery, Allan

Thanks for your replies, much appreciated.

I have been informed that a new book entitled 85 years of the Douth African Air Force has recently been published. This has all the serial numbers of over 8,000 aircraft that have served with the SAAF. Similar in style to the RAF serial series.

Maybe this will have the relevant info.

Alex



RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: melaniejane
Time Stamp:
09:38:04 Tuesday, November 14, 2006
Post:
Hi again Joss!

I have been looking up your query in the book "Yellow Wings - the story of the JATS in World War II" by Capt Dave Becker (published 1989 by the SAAF Museum, Johannesburg). In it, he says the following about 45AS in Oudtshoorn (mainly famous for its ostrich farms!!!) an hour's drive inland from the coast, between Cape Town and Port Elizabeth)

- It was established 11 November 1940 and disbanded 20 Aug 1945.

- It was an Air Observer School (Type B) under the control of 25 Group (later 24 Group).

- The major aircraft types were Ansons, Oxfords and Battles.

- The school motto was "Primus Inter Pares" (first among equals); its badge depicts an ostrich surmouunted by the SAAF eagle; the unit magazine was called "Sprog"

- the school mounted security patrols around the perimeter against the members of the Ossewa Brandwag (Nazi-style organisation in SA devoted to preventing SA's participation in the Allied cause) who had attacked AS pupils on their arrival

- for several years, 45 AS's fire section was used to deal with fires in the town and surrounding countryside

- In April 42, 145 Reserve Squadron was formed as a bomber reconnaissance unit with 45 AS's Ansons, and were deployed from time to time to assist operational units on coastal patrols.

- By March 1945, nearly 3000 Air Observers had been trained at 45AS, including RAF, SAAF, RAAF, Rhodesians, Greeks and Belgians.

- the 45AS premises remain the town's civilian airfield until today.

As for 43 Air School at Port Alfred (east coast between Port Elizabeth and East London - popular holiday resort town today):

- It opened 12 Jan 1942 and disbanded 15 Sept 1946

- It was an Air Observer School (Type C) under the control of 25 (later 24) Group

- Major aircraft types were Oxfords, Ansons, Battles, Nomads with a few Harts, Rearwins, Audaxes, Harvards and Vlentias

- The school motto was "Werk Hard, Speel Hard" (work hard, play hard); the badge shows crossed aircraft guns and a hand holding a flaming torch. (sorry - don't know what make/model the guns are!!); the unit magazine was called "The Drogue"

- Initially, most pupils came from 45 and 47 Air Schools for the gunnery phase of their training; 64 AS (Bloemfontein - W/T training) later also became a feeder school)

- 143 Reserve Sqn was formed with 43AS's Northrups in 1942 to assist with coastal recces. There were several reported contacts with passing U-boats (and some whales!!!)

- By July 1943, 43AS had trained 524 Air Observers for the RAF and 53 W/T Air Gunners for the SAAF.

- The 43AS premises were resuscitated in the late 1980's as a civilian flying school appropriately named 43 Air School! It still operates today and I am told that some of the wartime buildings are preserved where outlines can be seen on the classroom walls of the gunnery training exercises!

Hope the Lively family find some of this interesting. There are some pictures in the book if you want me to scan & email them to you!

All the best

Mel

PS Have recently had news that my (SAAF) uncle's plane MAY have been found in Italy. There is definitely a 4-engined bomber wreck and it is the right area. Fingers crossed!!!!



RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Murland
Time Stamp:
10:46:01 Tuesday, November 14, 2006
Post:
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 14-Nov-06 AT 10:46 AM (GMT)[/font][p]Hi Melanie Jane

Is it possible you can do a look up for me on 6 Air School and 27 Air School please. If you could scan the relevant bits for me that would be even better!!

Jerry


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: melaniejane
Time Stamp:
06:05:18 Wednesday, November 15, 2006
Post:
Hi Jerry

With pleasure . . . after imminent dentist appointment!!! If you give me your address I will scan & email direct. (My address: melhermanATiafrica.com)

6 EFTS was at Potchefstroom; 27 SFTS was at Bloemspruit near Bloemfontein.

Till later . . . .

regards

Mel


RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: melaniejane
Time Stamp:
11:15:59 Tuesday, November 14, 2006
Post:
Hi again, Joss!

I have been looking up your query in a book called "Yellow Wings - the story of the JATS in World War II" by Capt Dave Becker, published in 1989 by the SAAF museum, Johannesburg. He has the following info about 45 Air School in Oudtshoorn (famous for its ostrich farms!) about an hour's drive inland from the coast between Cape Town and Port Elizabeth:

- It was an Air Observer School (Type B), under the control of 25 Group (later 24 Group), established 11 November 1940 and disbanded 20 August 1945

- Its major aircraft types were Ansons, Oxfords and Battles

- Its motto was "Primus Inter Pares" (first among equals); its badge depicts an ostrich (!!!) surmounted by the SAAF eagle, and the unit magazine was called "Sprog"

- Its fire section acted as the town's fire brigade for several years

- It mounted regular security patrols around the perimeter against the Ossewa Brandwag (Nazi-style organisation in SA devoted to stopping SA involvement in the Allied cause) which was very active in the area and whose members had beaten up AS pupils upon their arrival

- In 1942, 145 Reserve Squadron was formed with the AS's Ansons and was deployed occasionally on coastal patrols assisting operational units

- By March 1945, 3000 Air Observers had been trained at 45AS, including RAF, SAAF, RAAF, Rhodesians, Greeks and Belgians

- The Air School buildings are now used by the SA National Defence Force and the the airfield serves as the town's civil airfield

As regards 43 Air School at Port Alfred (east coast between Port Elizabeth and East London - a holiday resort town today) Becker says:

- It was an Air Observer School (Type C) under the control of 25 (later 24) Group, opened on 12 Jan 1942 and disbanded 15 Sept 1946.

- Its major aircraft types were Oxfords, Ansons, Battles, Nomads, with a few Harts, Rearwins, Audaxes, Harvards and Valentias

- Its motto was "Werk Hard, Speel Hard" (Afrikaans: work hard, play hard), its badge was a crossed pair of aircraft guns (sorry - I can't identify the make/model!) surmounted by a hand holding a flaming torch; its unit magazine was "The Drogue"

- 143 Reserve Squadron was formed in April 1942 and served on coastal recces with operational units, having contact with a number of U-boats (and the occasional whale!!)

- Most 43AS pupil Observers came from 45 and 47 Air Schools (Oudtshoorn & Queenstown) for gunnery training although W/T's from 64AS (Bloemfontein) also later went to 43AS for the air gunnery part of their training.

- By July 1943, 43 AS had trained 524 Observers for the RAF nad an additional 53 W/T Air Gunners for SAAF

- In June 1945 43 AS closed down as the water supply to the airfield had dried up; it was moved to Grahamstown (ex 44AS premises) where it remained until Sept 1946

- The AS's facilities at Port Alfred were resuscitated in the late 1980's as a civilian flight school appropriately named 43 Air School! It is still operating today and I am told that some of the WW2 buildings have been preserved and on the classroom walls can be seen the painted outlines of gunnery training exercises!

Hoipe the Lively family find some of this interesting! There are a number of pictures in the book, Joss, if you want me to scan & email them to you?

All the best

Mel



RE: flying training in South Africa
Author: Joss Leclercq (Guest)
Time Stamp:
17:51:21 Tuesday, November 14, 2006
Post:
hello Mel,

Many thanks for the extra details about the Air Schools in South Africa. Very interesting and informative reading.

If the Lively family would like to see pictures, I'll e-mail you directly.

Cheers

Joss