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Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.Author: Allena
Time Stamp:
01:59:29 Thursday, May 10, 2007
Post:
This is my first visit to this site, so please excuse any errors. I am interested in a Spitfire which crashed close to the border in County Monaghan, Ireland, in 1942. The pilot bailed out successfully over my grandfather's land in County Tyrone and was given assistance there. This has been a tale that has been told and re-told in our family for many years and I just wonder if anyone out there knows anything more about this crash, or indeed the name of the pilot who survived.
Many thanks for your help.
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Pierre BABIN (Guest)
Time Stamp:
05:52:36 Thursday, May 10, 2007
Post:
Hello Allena,
Try this website : you have probably the answer :
http://www.skynet.ie/%7Edan/war/crashes.htm
Pierre
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Dennis_Burke
Time Stamp:
07:37:25 Thursday, May 10, 2007
Post:
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 05-Oct-07 AT 07:40 AM (GMT)[/font][p]hello Allena
great to hear from you.
Thats my attempt at a website above and if you mail me at
dp_burke.A T.yahoo.com
I'll se what else I can get you.
Basic details I know are
The aircraft was Spitfire R6992 of 1402 Meteorlogical Flight. The pilots name was a Fl/Lt Proctor, as advised on this board previously, but I've not be able yet to find out his full name and who he was.
Most of my knowledge comes from this post last year:
http://www.rafcommands.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=9240&forum=DCForumID6&archive=yes
Have a read of that.
I'd very interested to hear what your family involvment was. perhaps some small piece of that story might give us a clue as to who he was.
RUC records may have his full name or a good clue or one of the other posters on the forum here.
Thanks for posting
Dennis
Foreign aircraft and their crews in Ireland 1939 - 1945.
www.skynet.ie/%7Edan/war/crashes.htm
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: mcmillan_p
Time Stamp:
10:12:11 Thursday, May 10, 2007
Post:
I have a "Sgt Mann" as being the Pilot of Spitfire R6992 on 20 Sept 1942..
Firstly, I do not know where this is from, but I wonder if the Sgt Mann is Sgt Jackie Mann (i.e the ex BoB Pilot and Beirut Hostage)
I know the ORB has a Fl/Lt Proctor - the only issue I have is that the original posting says, took off at 12:45, "crashed in Eire and returned to fly another mission at 1800 hours"..
Now, the question is did he land in Eire or Northern Ireland.. Allena's posting indicates that he landed in Northern Ireland and the aircraft crashed in Ireland... I could understand him returning to unit within 5 hours if this was the case, not if it was the other way round (even if at this stage in teh war he would not have been interned)!!!
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Dennis_Burke
Time Stamp:
10:38:39 Thursday, May 10, 2007
Post:
Sorry
I should have indicated that the Irish Military report on the crash does say that the pilot did not land in Ireland but landed in Northern Ireland. The Irish police, the Garda, were told by the RUC in NI later that day that the pilot was safe accross the border.
The Irish reports are G2/X/1059 and ACF-S-138.
I've been goingonly on last years posting. Is there serial number again the aircraft Proctor was lfying on that day?
I'll have to read the posting again.
Dennis
Foreign aircraft and their crews in Ireland 1939 - 1945.
www.skynet.ie/%7Edan/war/crashes.htm
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Allena (Guest)
Time Stamp:
12:44:26 Thursday, May 10, 2007
Post:
Thank you gentlemen for your interesting responses. I'll eagerly await any further details you can find.
The story of this event was told to me by my mother, who was 20 years of age at the time. It is as follows:
On 20 Sept 1942, William Johnston watched as a pilot bailed out of a striken Spitfire over Crilly lands in Co Tyrone. The pilot landed safely and carefully gathered up his parachute and hid it. The abandoned aircraft continued on a few miles, crossing the County Tyrone (in Northern Ireland) and County Monaghan (in Republic of Ireland) border, before finally crashing in Co. Monaghan. Mr Johnston approached the pilot to see if he was alright. The pilot asked whereabouts he was and was relieved to find he was in Northern Ireland. On being informed he was in Co. Tyrone, he asked to be taken to the nearest telephone. Mr Johnston (an employee of Mr William J Knox, of Crilly House) told him he'd "best come and speak to the boss". He then took the pilot to Mr Knox (my grandfather) at Crilly House, who gave him access to a telephone and also a hot meal. The police (RUC) came and the pilot left with them, thanking my Grandpa and saying that he hoped to one day meet and reward the person who had packed his parachute so well, as it had saved his life.
It was an exciting event in our family and has always been remembered. Many thanks again for your responses and I look forward to hearing if anything more can be learnt about F/Lt Proctor. Just finding out his name has been a real thrill. :)
Kind regards.
A
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Dennis_Burke
Time Stamp:
14:57:17 Thursday, May 10, 2007
Post:
I did look for a form F1180 for this crash in Hendon but there was no such card on the reel in question. I did ask of the AHB lately and am hoping to hear from them.
Allena?
Thanks ever so much for posting the above, it is wonderful to see it recorded. Would you know what RUC barracks/station was closest to the house?
regards
Dennis
Foreign aircraft and their crews in Ireland 1939 - 1945.
www.skynet.ie/%7Edan/war/crashes.htm
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Allena (Guest)
Time Stamp:
15:16:04 Thursday, May 10, 2007
Post:
Hello again Denis,
The closest would be Aughnacloy RUC station - although, back in 1942, it might have been Caledon RUC station that dealt with it. I'm not sure when Aughnacloy's station came into being. Caledon's RUC station (which I believe is the older of the two) is now gone, but Aughnacloy's is still in service. Crilly is situated roughly between the two villages, slightly closer to Aughnacloy. Hope this helps.
A.
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Martin Gleeson (Guest)
Time Stamp:
01:22:05 Sunday, June 10, 2007
Post:
Hallo Allena,
Your posting is very welcome. I too have been looking for more information on this incident.
Like Dennis Burke I have as yet been unable to obtain the pilot's Christian name(s) and service number. These details are not recorded in the 1402 Met. Flight Operational Record Book which can be viewed in The National Archives, Kew, London.
To help in possibly establishing his full identity the ORB gives the following details.
4-12-1941 Pilot Officer Proctor posted in to the Flight.
c.15-3-1942 P/O Proctor promoted to the rank of Flying Officer.
1-5-1942 F/O Proctor promoted to the rank of Acting Flight Lieutenant.
20-1-1943 F/L Proctor posted to the Aeroplane and Armanent Experimental Establishment (AAEE).
7-6-1943 F/L Proctor Mentioned in Despatches for his work on this Flight.
A trawl of The London Gazette website enables us to reduce the possibilities. The most obvious candidate, in my opinion, is 60769 Gordon Hayter Proctor (died 3-10-1944 in the Far East)
However there is no evidence yet that this is the pilot who landed on your family farm. Hopefully someone can add to this.
The unit ORB is incorrect in recording that the pilot landed 'in Eire'. As you have already stated, and backed up by the Irish Army Archives, he definitely landed in Northern Ireland.
The Spitfire crashed a mere 350 yards on the southern side of the border. At one stage an 'unauthorized' group of RAF and RUC personnel crossed the border to view the wreck. They departed shortly before two RAF officers, authorized by the Irish Authorities, arrived on the scene !
It would be of great value if you could describe where exactly your grandfather's farm is located in relation to the border, and even more so the exact place on the farm where the pilot landed. I suspect the farm was a large holding in 1942 ? For example did he land near Crilly House ? Does your family still live there ?
Regards for now,
Martin Gleeson.
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: mcmillan_p
Time Stamp:
16:21:05 Friday, August 10, 2007
Post:
There was a Sqn Ldr JRE Proctor with A&AEE in Nov 43..
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Lyffe
Time Stamp:
19:25:42 Friday, August 10, 2007
Post:
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 08-Oct-07 AT 08:18 PM (GMT)[/font][p]Hi Allena,
Thank you for posting this query as I was the originator of the thread that Dennis identified. It's another interesting example of how a memory either plays tricks or a story changes in the telling over the years. I've no doubt whatsover that the majority of the tale is correct, but it's the very first sentence that worries me a little.
According to the Operations Record Book the aircraft's controls froze at 20000 ft whilst the aircraft was in cloud, having been in cloud from 300 ft at take-off from Aldergrove. Whilst I accept the cloud base could have been higher at Crilly, I question whether Johnston would actually have watched the pilot bale out. I don't have the weather charts for this date to hand, but in view of your post I will certainly get them.
I suspect that what he saw was the parachute coming out of the cloud.
My interest is that I'm putting together a history of the RAF Met Flights, and this is one of many examples of the courage of their pilots who flew when others were grounded.
Brian
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Martin Gleeson (Guest)
Time Stamp:
23:53:13 Friday, August 10, 2007
Post:
Paul,
Thanks for the input, but you have thrown a spanner in the works so to speak !
I have not been able to find any trace of a JRE Proctor in the London Gazette or elsewhere. The nearest seems to be John Ernest Proctor, a fighter ace. However he appears to have spent most or all of the period 1942-1945 in the MTO. Also he was a S/L by May 1942 at least when he took over 33 Squadron. His service number was 44131. Do you have a service number for JRE Proctor ?.
Brian,
You are correct about the weather. An Irish Army report, quoting local Gardai (Police), states at the time of the crash visibility was very bad with the cloud base at about 500 ft.
Regards,
Martin Gleeson.
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: errol.martyn@xtra.co.nz (Guest)
Time Stamp:
06:25:11 Monday, September 10, 2007
Post:
Martin,
The Oct 1946 AFL has:
42435 J R E Procter (but not a J R E Proctor).
Appears in the list as being 'released'
Errol
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: mcmillan_p
Time Stamp:
09:19:59 Monday, September 10, 2007
Post:
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 09-Oct-07 AT 09:35 AM (GMT)[/font][p]Looks like Errol has the correct info.. I found JRE Proct*r in Air Britain book on Test Accidents as he had an incident on 9th Nov 43 on Hudson AM907 -- He has another incident a few weeks later when a civilian lost his life..
Using Errols Serial Number 'hit' we have
The undermentioned Pilot Officers on probation
are confirmed in their appointments:%97
2nd June 1940
James Richard Eastham PROCTER (42435).
Also note:
The undermentioned Acting Pilot Officers
on probation are graded as Pilot Officers on
probation on the dates stated:%97
30th Mar. 1940.
James Richard Eastham PROCTER (42435).
Flg. Offs. to be Flt. Lts. (war subs.): %97
7th Mar. 1942.
J. R. E. PROCTER (42435). 30th Mar. 1942.
Note: This promotion was announced 28th April 1942 could this tie in with 1/5/42 date above??......
Finally...
Flight Lieutenants, retaining the rank of Squadron
Leader:%97
J. R. E. PROCTER, D.F.C. (42435). 9th Oct. 1957.
Note award of DFC
Gazette Issue 36140 published on the 17 August 1943.
Air Ministry, 20th August, 1943.
The KING has been graciously pleased to approve
the following awards: %97
Distinguished Flying Cross
Acting Squadron Leader James Richard Eastham
PROCTER (42435), Royal Air Force, No. 120
Squadron.
Paul
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Pierre Renier (Guest)
Time Stamp:
16:41:40 Monday, September 10, 2007
Post:
Dear All
Just to confuse matters, especially as their names have already been mentioned, both F/L Gordon Hayter Proctor (60769) and (Acting) S/L John Ernest Proctor (44131) were Mentioned in Despatches on 02 Jun'43, LG36033 pages 2459 & 2456 respectively which ties in with Martins note in thread 8 above.
Once in my own research, I've had pilots with the same surname in the same unit and it was only minute study of the unit appendicies and ranks that I was able to tell them apart! In another case I'd mistakenly thought one of pilots I was interested in had been killed later in the war, as he shared the same surname,initials and unit, only to discover it was another chap posted in much later.
Is it a possibility therefore that both a Proctor & Procter might have served in the same unit, as two sets of information appear to match?
No doubt the case continues.....!
Kind regards
Pierre
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Martin Gleeson (Guest)
Time Stamp:
23:58:49 Monday, September 10, 2007
Post:
Errol, Paul and Pierre,
Many thanks for your input and clarifications.
I feel more certain now that G.H. Proctor was the pilot of R6992, but still lack the 'smoking gun' to copperfasten this belief.
From looking at all of our posts I summarize the three most likely canditates as;
G.H. Proctor was a F/L in 1942, was MID in May 1943 and posted to the AAEE in January 1943.
J.R.E. Procter was a F/L in 1942 and served in the AAEE during 1943, but did not receive a MID as far as I can tell.
J.E. Proctor was a S/L in 1942, but was in the Middle East. He was MID in May 1943 but does not seem to have served at the AAEE.
It is unusual that two very similar surnames had such a close promotion path and served in the same unit.
Any further comments most welcome.
By the way, where can one find - if at all - the citations to go with individual MIDs ? Are they online or in an archive ?
Regards,
Martin Gleeson.
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: mcmillan_p
Time Stamp:
08:06:29 Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Post:
J.R.E. Procter was a F/L in 1942 and served in the AAEE during 1943, but did not receive a MID as far as I can tell.
Also he was multi-engined pilot at A&AEE... Hudson, then Liberators (120 Sqn) so UNLIKELY to be Spitfire Pilot before posting
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Martin Gleeson (Guest)
Time Stamp:
23:42:22 Wednesday, October 10, 2007
Post:
Paul,
Yes indeed! Last night I did some 'digging' into the career of J.R.E. Procter and found he was the Captain of Liberator AM919 which sank U-258 on 20 May 1943. More than likely the award of his DFC on 20 August 1943 related to this attack. (from SEARCH,FIND AND KILL; 2nd Edition by Norman Franks).
I think that rules him out as the pilot we are seeking to identify.
Thanks again. Regards.
Martin.
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: mcmillan_p
Time Stamp:
10:32:09 Saturday, November 10, 2007
Post:
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 11-Oct-07 AT 10:40 AM (GMT)[/font][p]Note:
G.H. Proctor was a Acting F/L when MID in May 1943
J.E. Proctor was a Acting S/L when MID in May 1943 with a DFC.. Now all I need is to have London Gazette up long enougj to find out when and how he got DFC
Just found it:
Gazette Issue 35110 published on the 18 March 1941.
"Acting Flight Lieutenant John Ernest PROCTOR
(44131), No. 32 Squadron.
This officer has displayed great skill as a
fighter pilot. He has destroyed at least 11
enemy aircraft; 7 of these were shot down
while serving with his squadron in France.
He has set a splendid example."
So going on the ORB entries
"4-12-1941 Pilot Officer Proctor posted in to the Flight."
Could not be him as already acting F/L in March 41
So I agree G.H. Proctor is looking the most likely
Paul
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: mcmillan_p
Time Stamp:
11:19:08 Saturday, November 10, 2007
Post:
GH Proctor through London Gazette
Sergeants to Pilot Officers on probation.
15th Feb. 1941.
(Seniority 14th Jan. 1941.)
741771 Gordon Hayter PROCTOR (60769).
Flg. Off.
G. H. PROCTOR (60769). 15th Feb. 1942. (Seny.
14th Jan. 1942.)
Gazette Issue 36022 published on the 18 May 1943
Flg Off. to be Flt/Lts. (war subs.) :%97.
G. H. PROCTOR (60769). 15th Feb. 1943. (Seny,
14th Jan. 1943.)
RE: Supermarine Spitfire crash over County Monaghan, Ireland.
Author: Martin Gleeson (Guest)
Time Stamp:
22:29:39 Saturday, November 10, 2007
Post:
Hallo Paul,
Yes I agree about G.H. Proctor. All the evidence available to us points to him being the pilot of Spitfite R6992 on 20 September 1942.
Would anyone have any information on him, Gordon Hayter Proctor (60769), from 1940 to 1943 ?
Thanks again,
Martin.