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ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding

ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: mcmillan_p
Time Stamp:
14:07:31 24 October 2007
Post:
From Chris Pointings, list

http://www.raf-lichfield.co.uk/ATA%20Casualties.htm

OK - Can anyone help with..

1) Confirming date for: Cummings Sydney Edward F/O UK 29/08/1940 Wandsworth on AR666 Mohawk caught fire on t/o Hawarden to Lossiemouth returned and crashed on approach - date of crash given as 26/08/40 -

2) Confirming Incident : seriously injured days earlier probably AR658 Mohawk 02/01/41 hit cables crashed 21/2 miles NW of Wroughton (Swindon 5a 47 (BOAC)

3) Confirmng Incident in January 1941 that caused the death, 4 months later of: Napier Carill Stanley Cpt UK 29/04/1941 Halton (St Michael) death registered Aylesbury 3a 2350

4) Mills 28/06/1941: - I still think he could have been on P2402 - Any idea where this physically crashed?

5) Hansen 23/07/1941: Old favourite of this board

6) Taylor Henry Edward S/O UK 17/08/1941 Maidenhead death registered Eton 3a 3816 - Eton is very near to Maidenhead (White Walham), could have been a crash or where he lived

7) Stewart William Arundel S/O NZ 09/12/1941 Died of illness - Cemetery not known - Is his death registered anywhere in UK - might allow ID of Cemetery ?

- I note Errol Martyn says died of illness, but says Brief Glory says flying accident.....

8) Serial Number for aircraft: Grant Malcolm Cross F/O UK 29/08/1942 Golders Green Havoc crashed at Abbott Piggott nr Bassingbourne - Burtonwood to Bradwell Bay

9) Grundstrom Edwin Allan F/O USA 07/10/1942 Cambridge American

Not listed Scotand or UK - there is one SOUNDEX for

Grundstrom (any forenames) Edwin in 1942, which anyone who knows SOUNDEX could equally be G**** Edwin.. As they could have spelt that name wrong.. Though from 1942 ish American USAAF airmen do not appear on UK death registers - the same may be the case for Civilians - Though see Cordner below

10)Serial number: Colman Alan Rees F/O UK 17/01/1943 Leeds

Hurricane ground looped at Sherburn on landing and tipped over into water - pilot drowned

11) Confirm Cordner J. Herald Flt/Cpt USA 02/03/1944 Cambridge American ATA died of natural causes at Prestwick is Jay Herald or Herald J -- Note: He is down on ScotlandsPeople as Harold Cordner


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Dick
Time Stamp:
17:07:24 24 October 2007
Post:
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 24-Oct-07 AT 05:29 PM (GMT)[/font][p][font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 24-Oct-07 AT 05:20%A0PM (GMT)[/font]

Hi Paul

Air Britain AA-AZ Serials has date of Mohawk AR666 as 26/8/40 no unit or location.For Mohawk AR658 the date and incident details match what you have with the unit as 2 FPP. Ancestry.com has the death of an ERIC D Mills, age 34,registered at Maidenhead in the JUL-SEPT qtr of 1941.

Regards

Dick


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Chris Pointon (Guest)
Time Stamp:
01:09:43 25 October 2007
Post:
Database http://www.raf-lichfield.co.uk/ATA%20Casualties.htm

updated with latest ammendments as detailed on RAF Commands Board and additions of aircrew torpedoed on SS Nerissa 30/04/41 and Douglas King on Electra 22/04/40.

Many thanks for all your contributions to date

Chris


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Lauries_Girl
Time Stamp:
06:50:39 25 October 2007
Post:
re (7) Stewart William Arundel's death is not registered in BMD England & Wales 1941 or 1942. Could be on RAF indexes at FRC.

LG


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: errol.martyn@xtra.co.nz (Guest)
Time Stamp:
07:23:15 25 October 2007
Post:
LG,

I think you may have mistakenly assumed that Stewart's surname was Arundel?

William Arundel STEWART's death appears in the Nov-Dec 1941 quarter - under district of Southampton.

Errol


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Henk Welting (Guest)
Time Stamp:
13:08:05 25 October 2007
Post:
Paul,

Re (10) COLMAN:

Hurricane IV - KX411 - 1 FPP - Overturned water-logged patch, Sherburn-in-Elmet 17.1.43 - to 4620M 9.43.

Henk.


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Henk Welting (Guest)
Time Stamp:
13:51:35 25 October 2007
Post:
Paul,

Re (9) GRUNDSTROM:

Initially buried temp. US Cem. Lisnabreeny, Belfast (N.Ireland), location B.4.2. Hailed from the State Massachusetts.

Re (11) CORDNER:

On old IBM-list mentioned 'Herald' later amended 'J. Herald'.

Henk.


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: DaveW
Time Stamp:
19:08:27 25 October 2007
Post:
Paul

Clark JTW; his death is recorded by CWGC as being 25th May 1940, not April.

regards

DaveW


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Chris Pointon (Guest)
Time Stamp:
00:58:17 26 October 2007
Post:
Database http://www.raf-lichfield.co.uk/ATA%20Casualties.htm

updated tonight.

Sorry DaveW typo on Clark - many thanks Henk with details on Hurricane at Sherburn plus info on Grundstrom in Northern Ireland brilliant and we can hopfeully .

Can anyone get details of online death registrations from Northern Ireland without asking for a certificate at a price of %A311.00 ?

Chris


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: mcmillan_p
Time Stamp:
07:53:02 26 October 2007
Post:
Chris

You missed Eric David Mills - "P2402 Magister crashed no other details NOT REGISTERED ENGLAND OR SCOTLAND" - Not so.. Death registered in Maidenhead... See Dick's note above..

As previously posted - Mills Notice death in Times only mentions 'Accident'

I would also add Stewart William Arundel -- Death registered in Southampton (see Errol's note) - May be able to track down cemetery

Paul


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: mcmillan_p (Guest)
Time Stamp:
18:04:18 26 October 2007
Post:
One more down....

Confirmng Incident in January 1941 that caused the death, 4 months later of: Napier Carill Stanley Cpt UK 29/04/1941 Halton (St Michael) death registered Aylesbury 3a 2350

The incident in January 1941 was in Blenheim Mk 1 L1100 of 1 FPP that crashed 03/01/1941; Stalled on take-off at West Raynham and hot hanger; Capt. C. Napier (ATA solo pilot) serverly injured.

Source The Bristol Blenheim A Complete History 2nd Edition by Graham Warner

Paul



RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Chris Pointon (Guest)
Time Stamp:
00:23:31 27 October 2007
Post:
Database http://www.raf-lichfield.co.uk/ATA%20Casualties.htm

updated tonight.

At the moment we have 166 casualties but the A.T.A. Memorial in the crypt of St Pauls Cathedral states that 173 people lost their lives. I would like readers to check any casualties from B.O.A.C who may be on their lists as serving with the A.T.A which could account for the missing 7 personnel from the database. However they could be ground crew or admin personnel which is something I will be checking out.

I ask again for help on deaths in Northern Ireland and whether Grundstrom would be on any lists from Ancestry.com which is a site I am not familiar with.

Chris


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: DaveW
Time Stamp:
18:22:53 27 October 2007
Post:
Nathaniel Berry's death 18/3/42 is registered in the second qtr of 1942 at Lancaster.

There is a Thomas C D Bray listed in the same qtr at Southport.

This suggests that the Hampden came down in the sea in the Morecambe Bay area.

regards

DaveW


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Lauries_Girl
Time Stamp:
19:58:04 27 October 2007
Post:
I am not sure if Grundstrom would be on the RAF war deaths list at the GRO - if so the certificate would only cost %A37.

LG


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: DaveW
Time Stamp:
11:59:22 28 October 2007
Post:
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 28-Oct-07 AT 11:59 AM (GMT)[/font][p]I hope I am not treading on any toes by posting corrections here.

Rodway 11/12/42 death location is Newton Cottage Farm which is extant at 38/880119. If you have the death cert compare how the 'N' in Norman is formed with the 'N' in Newton.

regards

DaveW


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Chris Pointon (Guest)
Time Stamp:
00:46:18 31 October 2007
Post:
Database http://www.raf-lichfield.co.uk/ATA%20Casualties.htm

updated tonight.

Cpt W.L.Handley was not flying Oxford L4622 but Airacobra AH598 which crashed at Fingland Cumbria.

Thank you Henk for pointing this out - mistake caused by not checking all death registration areas.

Chris



RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: John Larder (Guest)
Time Stamp:
11:23:57 03 November 2007
Post:
Chris

There are 8 people in Cambridge American Cemetery all killed on 14/8/1941.

ATA: 1st. Off. Elbert Beard Anding, 1st. Off. Phillip Francis Lee, 1st. Off Earl Wellington Watson, 1st. Off. Martin Joseph Wetzel

Ferry Command: Capt. Murray Benjamin Dilley, Capt. Alton Chester Earle, Capt. Gerald Hull, 1st. Off. Elmer Edward Trumble

There are also 20 buried in Kilbride Old Churchyard killed on 10/8/1941 all in a collective grave.

ATA: Radio Officers Albert Alexander Oliver,George Herbert Powell and Herbert David Rees

Ferry Command: Capt. James Josiah Anderson, Radio Officer Ralph Bruce Brammer, Radio Officer John Beatty Drake,Capt. Daniel Joseph Duggan, Capt.George Thomas Harris, Capt. Hoyt Ralph Judy, Radio Officer Wilfred Groves Kennedy, Capt. Watt Miller King, Radio Officers George Laing,Kenneth William Marks,Hugh Cameron McIntosh, Capt. John Evan Price, Capt. Harold Clifford Smith, Capt. Jack Wixen

BOAC: Capt. Ernest Robert Bristow White



RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Rich Allenby (Guest)
Time Stamp:
12:20:43 03 November 2007
Post:
regarding F/O A R Colman and Hurricane KX411, i have him in my info as being the son of the famous Mustard maker.

Rich


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Henk Welting (Guest)
Time Stamp:
13:14:43 03 November 2007
Post:
John,

Ferrying crews to Canada:

14-8-1941:

Liberator AM260 crashed short after take-off at Whittletts, Ayrshire. (22 casualties)

10-8-1941:

Liberator AM261 hit Am Binein 1 m N of Goat Fell, Isle of Arran (22 casualties).

Regards,

Henk.


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Chris Pointon (Guest)
Time Stamp:
02:17:05 04 November 2007
Post:
Many thanks John for listing those Liberator crews which has resulted in 4 more casualties been found bringing the total to 170 so 3 more to find.

Thank you to Rich and Henk for your input.

The database updated with latest information and typos http://www.raf-lichfield.co.uk/ATA%20Casualties.htm

Chris


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: John Larder (Guest)
Time Stamp:
17:45:40 04 November 2007
Post:
Henk

Thanks for the information. Are the 10 in Ayr Cemetery from AM260.

Maybe 2 more - 8/4/42 Nathan Frankelson & Richard Miller on Runnymede


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Chris Pointon (Guest)
Time Stamp:
12:44:43 05 November 2007
Post:
Many thanks John and both are listed as Air Transport Auxiliary - Henk do you have a cause of death for Nathan Frankelson W.Op and Cpt Richard Miller remembered on Runnymede 08/04/42 ?

Chris


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Henk Welting (Guest)
Time Stamp:
17:02:35 05 November 2007
Post:
Sorry Chris, nothing on both ATA-members; their names still on my list of 'unaccounted' airmen.

Answered your direct mail with link to a Hereford loss.

Regards,

Henk.


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: mcmillan_p
Time Stamp:
19:17:58 05 November 2007
Post:
"Soldier: Nathan Frenkelson (or Frankelson)

Enlistment Number: British forces

Rank: Wireless Operator

Unit: Royal Air Force Ferry Command (Air Transport Auxiliary)

Date of Birth:

Date of Death: 1942, April 08

Age: N/A

Cemetery: Runnymede Memorial (Panel 288)

Location: Surrey, England

War: W.W.II

Additional Info:

He was from Waldon, Sask. He was a radio operator on board a Lockheed Hudson transport being delivered to the United Kingdom when he was reported missing."

http://www.cjccc.ca/archives/casualtyinfo.php?info=432

So Hudson then Anything in Oceans Bridge or ANDREW HENDRIE's books for that date..



RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Henk Welting (Guest)
Time Stamp:
14:05:43 06 November 2007
Post:
Paul/Chris/John,

Reference "Ocean Bridge": Hudson IIIA FH246 of 1441 Flt lost over Atlantic Ocean en route to UK. Casualties: Captain MILLER, Radio Offr FR"E"NKELSON (both ATA) and F/O (Nav) William MURRAY - 77984 (Runnymede Panel 67).

Regards,

Henk.


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: mcmillan_p (Guest)
Time Stamp:
14:14:50 06 November 2007
Post:
We have been here before

http://www.rafcommands.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?forum=DCForumID6&mark=5583&az=previous_topic&archive=yes

And it is FRENKELSON

and Baugher has her

Crashed off Newfoundland during ferry flight Apr 8, 1942.

So out of interest, can anyone come up with a reason the crew is on Runnymede Memorial and not Ottawa Memorial ?

Paul


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Henk Welting (Guest)
Time Stamp:
17:05:51 05 November 2007
Post:
John,

With regard to AM260:

One (WATSON) buried Cambridge American Cemetery.

Remaining 21 casualties of AM260 all buried Ayr Cemetery.

Regards,

Henk.


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: John Larder (Guest)
Time Stamp:
09:01:09 06 November 2007
Post:
Henk

Sory to pester you but I have checked Ayr Cemetery and I can find 10. Where some moved to Cambridge American Cem.


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Henk Welting (Guest)
Time Stamp:
14:25:44 06 November 2007
Post:
John, I "stand in a white sheet".

10 Buried Ayr

8 Buried Cambridge American Cemetery (repatriated from Ayr)

1 Buried Cambridge American Cemetery directly (WATSON who was injured and died later)

2 Buried in USA (repatriated from Ayr)

1 in CWGC Civilian War Dead Register (Sir Arthur B. PURVIS - OBE/MBE [British Purchasing Mission in USA]).

Regards,

Henk.


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Henk Welting (Guest)
Time Stamp:
14:28:24 06 November 2007
Post:
.....forgot to mention dat Sir Arthur PURVIS was with the British Purchasing Mission in USA.

Henk.


RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Bobby (Guest)
Time Stamp:
00:46:54 07 November 2007
Post:
For 8th April 1942 from "Ocean Bridge"

Hudson FH246

Lost out of Gander

Richard G Miller American Civilian Pilot

F/O William Murray RAF Navigator

Nathan Frenkleson, Canadian Civilian, Radio Operator

HTH

Bobby



RE: ATA Mysteries - Still Outstanding
Author: Bobby (Guest)
Time Stamp:
07:18:16 07 November 2007
Post:
Sorry Henk,

missed your post with these details

Bobby