This is an archived page from the older DCBoard Forum of RAF Commands. This page is read-only. If you wish to post a query about this page, then please go to the newer RAF Commands Forum and register as a member. Alternatively you can leave a comment on this page using Facebook in the comments box at the bottom of the page.


Hurricane Mk IV - Recovered Post

Hurricane Mk IV - Recovered Post
Author: Ross_McNeill
Time Stamp:
12:55:12 Saturday, August 11, 2007
Post:
Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

29-Oct-07, 08:59 PM (GMT)

"Hurricane Mk.IV"

I am trying to establish the engine fitted to Mk.IV Hawker Hurricane KX190.

According to the Form 1180 for the accident it suffered on 22nd June 1943 it was fitted with a Merlin 20 engine. However all internet sources suggest that the Mk.IV was fitted with either a Merlin 21 or 22.

Can anyone confirm which is correct?

Thanks,

Jim

Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Table of Contents

Subject Author Message Date ID

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Dick 29-Oct-07 1

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Jim Corbett (Guest) 29-Oct-07 2

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Dick 30-Oct-07 4

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Jim Corbett (Guest) 30-Oct-07 5

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Chris Charland (Guest) 29-Oct-07 3

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Jim Corbett (Guest) 30-Oct-07 6

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV SteveB 30-Oct-07 7

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV David Duxbury (Guest) 30-Oct-07 8

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Graham Boak (Guest) 30-Oct-07 9

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Jim Corbett (Guest) 30-Oct-07 10

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Joss Leclercq (Guest) 31-Oct-07 11

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Jim Corbett (Guest) 31-Oct-07 12

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Joss Leclercq (Guest) 01-Nov-07 15

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Jim Corbett (Guest) 01-Nov-07 18

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Chris Charland (Guest) 31-Oct-07 13

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Jim Corbett (Guest) 31-Oct-07 14

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Al 01-Nov-07 16

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Al 01-Nov-07 17

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Jim Corbett (Guest) 01-Nov-07 19

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV David Duxbury (Guest) 02-Nov-07 20

RE: Hurricane Mk.IV Jim Corbett (Guest) 03-Nov-07 21

Lobby %7C Topics %7C Previous Topic %7C Next Topic

Messages in this topic

Dick (628 posts)

29-Oct-07, 10:11 PM (GMT)

1. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Hi Jim

I haven't looked for the Hurricane on the web but from a book published in 1957, "Famous Fighters of the Second World War" by William Green (which may have later revisions)it is suggested that the fitting of the more powerful Merlin 24 or 27 was one of the things that was different about the Hurricane IV. I suspect that you need to find out what your Hurricane was doing when it came to grief.If it was still an operational fighter then one would expect the more powerful engine to be fitted, but if it's operational days were over then the fitting of the older Merlin 20,say at an overhaul, might not be out of place.

Regards

Dick

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

29-Oct-07, 10:28 PM (GMT)

2. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Hi Dick,

The aircraft was relatively new and serving with 1 SLAIS at RAF Milfield. I originally thought that it may have been an error on the Form 1180 accident card but the Form 78 also states that the machine was fitted with a Merlin 20.

One of the main reasons I ask is that the aircrafts distinct lack of power was probably the main cause for the accident in June 1943.

The aircrafts history is as follows:

02.01.43 - 5 MU, Kemble

05.02.43 - 1 SLAIS, Milfield, coded RL-B

22.06.43 - Cat E2, 3m S of Elsdon, Northumberland

Hope someone can help.

Jim

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Dick (628 posts)

30-Oct-07, 09:48 AM (GMT)

4. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Hi Jim

Jane's is usually good so it could be that the Hurricane had a Merlin XX as standard, going by Chris' post. SLAIS ,according to the list that Jason Gaudet very kindly provided, is Specialised Low Attack Instructors School so depending on whether the crash site is on or close to a firing range it might have been at v.low level and vulnerable to an "engine cough" whatever mark of Merlin it had.It might also be significant that it got to SLAIS from a Maintenance Unit and not a Sqn.

Regards

Dick

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

30-Oct-07, 08:02 PM (GMT)

5. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Hi Dick,

I may be wrong but I believe that nearly all Hawker aircraft were first posted to 5MU at Kemble on completion, I know this was still the case in the 1950's with the Hawker Hunter.

The flight on the day of the crash was a low level cross country exercise. I have spoken to the pilot, Flt Sgt John Gates, and he explained that he and his number 2 were also instructed to locate and identify any army units operating along the flight path by carrying out a camera gun attack. The accident occurred whilst carry out such an attack.

Flt Sgt Gates spotted a convoy of army vehicles directly ahead and the two Hurricanes made their diving attack, Flt Sgt Gates was so low that his Hurricane clipped the aerial on one of the jeeps. About a mile south of the convoy he began a diving turn to the left and had levelled out to carry out the camera gun attack. It was at this point he noticed the aircraft was not pulling level and he struck rising ground just short of the convoy. The rising ground saved the army personnel for the Hurricane bounced over the convoy and cartwheeled into the ground on the other side of the road, shedding its wings and engine along the way.

Flt Sgt Gates survived the crash, there was no fire and he returned tp service some months later. John believes that the crash was caused by lack of experience on type due to the extra weight being carried with the additional armour plating.

I wonder however if there were other Hurricane Mk.IV crashes similar to this which resulted in the Merlin 20 engines being replaced for a type with higher horse power.

If anyone can confirm where Hurricane KX190 came in the Mk.IV production run it may help to clarify if the earlier production Mk.IV's were fitted with the Merlin 20.

Looking forward to your replies.

Jim

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Chris Charland (Guest) (1296 posts)

29-Oct-07, 11:42 PM (GMT)

3. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

G'day Jim

According to the 1946/47 edition of Janes, The Hawker Hurricane Mk. IV was fitted with the either the Rolls Royce 21 or 22.

In the engine section, it states that the Rolls Royce Merlin XX was used on the following types:

Britsol Beaufighter Mk. II

Bolton-Paul Defiant Mk. II

Handley Page Halifax B. Mk. II

Handley Page Halifax B. Mk. V

Hawker Hurricane Mk. II

*Hawker Hurricane Mk. IV

Avro Lancster B. Mk. I

Avro Lancaster B. Mk. III

NOTE: The Merlin Mark numbers are in Roman Numeral up to and including the Mk. XX. After that, all engine Marks are noted in Arabic numerals.

Cheers...Chris

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

30-Oct-07, 08:03 PM (GMT)

6. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Thanks for this Chris, interesting the list fails to mention the Merlin 20.

I have replied to Dick in depth above, you may have some comments on what I have written.

Thanks for your time.

Jim

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

SteveB (165 posts)

30-Oct-07, 08:34 PM (GMT)

7. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Jim

I am never quite certain about fairly old published sources but Francis Mason in his book on the Hurricane states in different places that the Hurricane IV was essentially the same as the Hurricane II series and that the Hurricane II was fitted with the Merlin XX. Essentially the MkIV was variation of the "low attack wing". However I have not found any specific statement in his book that confirms that the Hurricane IV was fitted with the Merlin XX. He also states that the Hurricane IV was manufactured on the same line as the Hurricane IIs. The Air Britain serial file shows that KX190 was one of "1455 Hurricanes IIB, IIC, IID, and IV delivered by Kingston and Langley" and numbered KW696 to KZ949. Within that batch, for example, KZ169 to KZ184 were IICs; KZ185 to KZ194 were IVs and KZ195 to KZ201 were IICs.

In correspondence I have had with Jim Halley of Air Britain he has stated very specifically that no single MU specialised in any single aircraft type. He says that RAF policy was to share the handling of any single type between five different MUs. This was to avoid a situation where a substantial enemy raid on an MU might seriously affect the supply of a particular type to frontline units.

Steve

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

David Duxbury (Guest) (404 posts)

30-Oct-07, 09:00 PM (GMT)

8. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

The published version (RAF Museum series, Vol 2) of AP.1564B (Hurricane II) is worth a look at, and it confirms the statements made by Steve B that the Mk.IV was basically a Mk.II with a specialised "low attack" wing, and in this respect is covered in the Publication in a section which also describes the Mk.IID. The Merlin XX (or Merlin 20, both designations being used in this publication, which is rather unusual as the policy to use Arabic numerals for ALL Mark numbers was not introduced until 1948) is the only type of Merlin mentioned in AP.1564B. However it would have been possible to fit other series 20 Merlins in a Hurricane without too much trouble I imagine. I am aware that various types of Allison V-1710s were installed in RNZAF P-40s in NZ during WW2, whatever the variant of the airframe, although this generally took place in training units, as front-line units generally were iussued with newly assembled aircraft with factory-installed engines.

David D

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Graham Boak (Guest) (146 posts)

30-Oct-07, 09:33 PM (GMT)

9. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

The important point about the Mk.IV is that it was armoured, both internally around the cockpit and engine, and externally around the radiator. The ground-attack wing had no fittings for conventional fighter armament, but could carry eight rockets, bombs, or two 40mm cannon. There may have been one sighting machine gun for the heavy cannon in each wing: comments differ but it does not seem to be present in photographs.

As such it did indeed handle differently from earlier variants, and clearly this could catch out the pilot new to the type. Many pilots did not like it, considering it slow and sluggish.

The Merlin XX, despite its mass production and apparent success, does seem to have gained a poor reputation for reliability with some types, notably Coastal Command Halifaxes, where their replacement with Merlin 22s was ardently desired.

Hawker did fly two Mk.V Hurricanes, which were basically Mk IVs with uprated Merlins, but these were not accepted for production.

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

30-Oct-07, 09:34 PM (GMT)

10. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Thanks Steve,

The use of the Merlin XX in the IV still seems rather vague but the Air Britain information suggests that KX190 was one of the first IV's off the Langley production run which may suggest an engine change to the 21 or 22 further down the line.

I still wonder if such accidents as suffered by KX190 were the catalyst to the engine change in the Mk.IV, or was it a simple matter of evolution in the engine design.

As well as having the "low attack wing" did the IV differ from the II with the armour plating around the nacelle and radiator bath?

Spreading types across various MU's would make sense, noted this for the future!

Thanks again and await further comments.

Jim

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Joss Leclercq (Guest) (699 posts)

31-Oct-07, 07:14 PM (GMT)

11. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Hello Jim,

I have several Hurricane Mk IVs that crashed in my research area (northern France), and as one of the pilots was Australian, I asked for his service file and casualty file (A705) to be digitised by the National Archives of Australia.

You can access the relevant pages by entering his service number in the search box, F/O John DOWNES, 420162, page 7 will be the most interesting to you.

All this to say that Hurricane KZ607 had a Merlin XX engine, as stated by the Missing Research and Enquiry Service investigator. He found the Hurricane engine, a XX, and nearby an fuselage panel with the number KZ607.

I think we can assume that KZ607 was built after KX190, so it is likely that KX190 also had a Merlin XX, at least on the production line.

Joss

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

31-Oct-07, 07:36 PM (GMT)

12. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Thanks Joss and everyone else for their input.

I wonder now then if the engine change was made to all Mk.IV's after the production run.

Joss, when did you Hurricane crash?

Jim

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Joss Leclercq (Guest) (699 posts)

01-Nov-07, 08:52 AM (GMT)

15. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

hello Jim,

Hurricane IV KZ607 crashed on 8th february 1944, after being hit by Flak during a RP attack on a V1 site.

Joss

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

01-Nov-07, 10:42 PM (GMT)

18. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Thanks Joss!

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Chris Charland (Guest) (1296 posts)

31-Oct-07, 10:02 PM (GMT)

13. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

G'day Jim

>>>Thanks for this Chris, interesting the list fails to mention the Merlin 20.<<<

Please read my last post pertaining to the change from Roman numerals to Arabic numbers. The Merlin XX (Roman numerals for 20).

Cheers...Chris

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

31-Oct-07, 10:10 PM (GMT)

14. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Hi Chris,

Hmmm, another case of posting when half a sleep.

Thanks,

Jim

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Al (25 posts)

01-Nov-07, 05:09 PM (GMT)

16. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Hi Jim

From my book pile.

Hurricane The illustrated History by Phillip J Birtles

He states in the spec appendix 1

Hurricane IV Merlin 27 1185 hp

The text later mentions conversions to Sea Hurricane II for some of the aircraft of this batch from Hawker. In this it mentions the conversion of the engine & states Merlin XX maybe yours is a naval version.

This of course doesn't answer your question but adds some more confusion sorry.

All the best

Alastair

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Al (25 posts)

01-Nov-07, 05:37 PM (GMT)

17. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Jim

from Edward Bishops book "Hurricane"

Ninth batch of 1200 aircraft. built Hawker, Kingston & langley

Contract no 62305/39/C parts 1-6

Deliveries commenced 20/11/42 completed 19/4/43 Ave +/- 8 machines a day.

Hope this helps, you may get the book through your library and you can read the whole text yourself.

Cheers

Al

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

01-Nov-07, 10:43 PM (GMT)

19. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Thanks for the extra info Al.

Jim

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

David Duxbury (Guest) (404 posts)

02-Nov-07, 04:20 AM (GMT)

20. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

A little bit more tehnical information from AP.1564B re the Hurricane IID and IV.

"Hurricane IID:- On all but the very earliest aircraft the pilot, radiator, and engine are protected by armour plate on the forward part of the aircraft. The pilot is additionally protected by windscreen side panels of bullet-proof glass and heavy gauge duralium panels on the forward part of the decking. The oil tank has a self-sealing covering; a wire mesh stone guard is fitted in front of the radiator fairing, and the starboard landing lamp is blanked off. On later aircraft, the carburettor air scoop has been removed, a gauze filter being provided in the air intake entry under the fuselage."

"The Hurricane IV .... is similar in most respects to the Hurricane IID, but is provided with a "low-attack" wing, which enables the airrcft to be fitted with either two Vickers Type "S" 40 m/m guns, or any one set of the following items, in addition to two .303 in. Browning guns:-

2 40 m/m Rolls-Royce Type "B-H" gunes (early aircraft only)

Bombs (two 250 or 500 ib.)

2 S.B.C.

2 S.C.I.

2 Drop fuel tanks.

The Rolls-Royce and Vickers guns are mounted in the same position under the wing, the only difference being in the method of mounting. Additional armour protection is incorporated as for the Hurricane IID.

It should be borne in mind that Mk.IV wings may be obtained as spares for either mark of aircraft, and that the fitting of such wings to a Mk.IID does not converet it into a Mk.IV as the corresponding controls and equipment are not installed in the fuselage."

From Pilot's Notes:- (Mk.II Hurricane generally, but also applies to Mk.IV).

11) General Flying (iii) "In steep turns there is a tendency to tighten up".

14) Stalling:-

(i) At the stall one wing usually drops sharply, often over the vertical, with flaps either up or down.

(ii) The average stalling speeds (mph IAS) for the aircraft at various AUW (from 7.600 to 9,200 lbs.) are:-

Undercarriage and flaps UP, 80 - 90.

Undercarriage and flaps DOWN, 60 - 75

The speeds for individual aircraft may vary by 5 mph.

15) Spinning:-

(i) Spinning of Mk.IID and Mk,IV aircraft is prohibited at all times.

(ii) On MK.IIA, B abd C aircraft, spinning is prohibited when carrying 90 gallon drop-tanks, bombs, S.C.I., or R.P.

(iii) Recovery is normal, but the loss of height involved in recovery may be very great and the following limits are to be observed:-

(a) Spins are not to be started below 10,000 feet.

(b) Recovery is to be initiated before two turns are completed.

(iv) A speed of 150 mph IAS should be attained before staring to wase out of the resultant dive."

I have included these limitations and warnings because I have noticed that often the flying characteresitics of the Hurricane can come across to give the impression that it was rather a "dear old girl" and that it was safe and predictable at all times. That may have been so to a degree and with the right training and sensible flying, but you can see that it was not to be flown carlessly or without regard to good common sense, particularly at lower altitudes.

David D

Remove %7C Alert Edit %7C Reply %7C Reply With Quote %7C Top

Jim Corbett (Guest) (592 posts)

03-Nov-07, 12:44 PM (GMT)

21. "RE: Hurricane Mk.IV"

Hi David,

This extra bit of technical information will be useful, thanks for taking the time to type it out.

Jim