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Thread: Claims of "probably destroyed"

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    Default Claims of "probably destroyed"

    I am wondering how likely it is that I will be able to find a matching loss for a claim in a combat report. I have already done a web search and found nothing for 30/31 March 1944 over Nuremburg.

    The 50 Sqn report I asked about earlier contained a claim for a ME.109 "probably destroyed". I'm sure there were many of these claims made out of enthusiasm with no loss actually occurring although perhaps the aircraft was hit and damaged.

    And how can I find out what Luftwaffe unit was defending that night? What are the usual sources for this kind of info?
    Last edited by dfuller52; 12th January 2011 at 09:43. Reason: corrected date
    David

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    Hi,

    the short answer is that it will not be easy to find such info.

    Among the types of Luftwaffe records are the quartermaster material (i.e. aircraft) loss returns. The daily reports for the year 1944 didn't survive the war.

    A different type of report, on personnel losses, are held officially in Germany and are covered by that countries privacy laws. Prior to the change of law, however, several researchers obtained copies of the personnel returns and a couple of books have been published that incorporate the information:

    'Deutsche Nachtjagd - Personalverluste in Ausbildung und Einsatz', by M. Balss
    'Die Personellen Verluste Der Deutschen Nachtjagdgeschwader 1940-1945 ', by V. Scherzer (doesn't cover single-engined units)

    In terms of the claim, could you pleae clarify the date the claim was made. In your other thread you stated 30-31 March 1944, but 25 April 1944 in this thread.

    I have checked the official Bomber Command Monthly Supplementary Narratives of Operations for March 1944 (consider it as a list of claims accepted by BCHQ) and only one 50 Sqdn claim is listed for the night of 30-31 March 1944 - 50 Sqdn Lancaster H claimed an Me110 as damaged.

    Cheers

    Rod

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    Thanks Rod, for those references. I figured it would be difficult. I know a lot of reports and claims made by the crews were overly optimistic but I didn't realize that they kept a record of ones that were officially accepted. Obviously, this one wasn't.

    Thanks for pointing out the mix-up in dates, which I have corrected - the discrepancy is between the date of the combat report, which was made by the crew of Lancaster "S" on the night of 30/31 March, and the date they were lost, which was 25 Apr.

    Any ideas on what Luftwaffe unit it was they faced?
    Last edited by dfuller52; 12th January 2011 at 09:44.
    David

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    Hi,

    from the wonderful research of Dr. Theo Boiten, it appears that single-engined fighters from Staffeln of JG 300, JG 301, and JG 302 were active in the Nuremberg area, and they claimed 12 bombers shot down (most of which were not later confirmed). In return they lost six single-engined fighters.

    Of these single-engined losses, Dr. Boiten states that Lt. Gabler of 9./JG 300 in a Bf109 G6 shot down 7 Sqdn Lancaster JB722 at 01.25 hrs just short of Nuremberg but was in turn shot down by his adversary and baled out of his Bf109 near Gutenburg.

    From the book, 'Deutsche Nachtjagd. Materialverluste in Ausbildung und Einsatz', by Michael Balss: Ofw. Rose of 9./JG 301 was killed when his Bf109 crashed at Straguth, NE of Zerbst. Uffz. Voekel of 7./JG 302 was killed when his Bf109 G6 (411079) crashed at Hildburghausen. Ofw. Hill of 8./JG 302 was killed when his Bf109 G6 (411460) crashed at Lischeid near Treisa/Ziegenhain.

    Dr. Boiten gives initial Bomber Command claims as six destroyed - two Bf109s, a Fw190, two Ju88s, and a Bf110.

    From the Bomber Command Supplemenatry Narrative of Operations 3/44, the following claims were acknowledged by BCHQ (obviously excludes any combats by RAF aircraft shot down):

    12 Sqn Lancaster W - 1 x Ju88 destroyed
    166 Sqn Lancaster P - 1 x Me110 destroyed
    76 Sqn Halifax M - 1 x Me109 destroyed
    76 Sqn Halifax J - 1 x Me210 probably destroyed
    78 Sqn Halifax M - 1 x Fw190 destroyed
    106 Sqn Lancaster N - 1 x Me109 destroyed
    239 Sqn Mosquito E - 1 x Ju88 destroyed

    12 Sqn Lancaster R - 1 x Me110 damaged
    12 Sqn Lancaster W - 1 x Fw190 damaged
    115 Sqn Lancaster N - 1 x Me110 damaged
    44 Sqn Lancaster U - 1 x Ju88 damaged
    44 Sqn Lancaster Z - 1 x Me109 damaged
    50 Sqn Lancaster H - 1 x Me110 damaged
    57 Sqn Lancaster B - 1 x Ju88 damaged
    467 Sqn Lancaster W - 1 x Ju88 damaged
    463 Sqn Lancaster Q - 1 x Ju88 damaged
    61 Sqn Lancaster R - 1 x Ju88 damaged
    429 Sqn Lancaster Q - 1 x Me210 damaged
    35 Sqn Halifax R - 1 x Ju88 damaged

    (note - there is a very slight chance that additional claims for 30-31 March were acknowledged in a later supplementary narrative, say for 4/44 or 5/44, but have have never seen or found preserved copies for these months)

    I guess there is a chance of a single fighter being claimed by gunners from multiple aircraft in the target area.

    Cheers

    Rod

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