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Thread: AM form 1180 Hendon + Air Historical Cards

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    Default AM form 1180 Hendon + Air Historical Cards

    I'm confused as to what difference if any there is between the AM form 1180 held at Hendon and the Crash Cards I was told which are at the Air Historical Branch, RAF Northolt?

    Also how many aircraft casualties between them do these reports include?

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    I think you will find the original Forms 1180 are held at the Air Historical Branch at Northolt whilst microfilmed copies are kept by the Dept of Research and Info Systems at the RAF Museum Hendon.

    As to numbers, I doubt if anyone has ever counted!! The cards record all notifiable accidents, whether or not the aircraft is written off or an injury or death sustained.

    Whilst the majority relate to RAF aircraft, there are some variations involving RAF personnel with other air forces. So you might find a series of cards dealing with AT6 Harvards in the USA where the pilot was RAF and he was killed but you won't find non fatal accidents in the batch. As an idea of numbers; there were 9300 aircraft written off between VE-Day and 1996 and over 6500 fatal casualties in the same period. There are, therefore, possibly a total of say 50000 cards for the same period.

    As a separate set of records, the Aircraft Movements Cards are also held at Hendon on microfilm. These are filed by type and serial number within type.

    Old Duffer

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    Perhaps what your asking about is the differnece between the AM Form 1180 held on microfilm at Hendon and the Form 765 that sometimes are dug out. The 1180 is a two sided brief report, hand written in all cases I've seen. Names the Pilot(s) only and can give a brief or slightly detailed synopsis of the loss/incident.

    The Form 765 is a larger, depending on the format, two to four page, with all crew listed by initials and service numbers, a little more detail on the aircraft and flight and then typed up synopsis of the incident and statements of reasons/blame/findings from commanding officers.

    You can find these in Australian airmens casualty files on the Australian national archives website, an example of a form 765 will be with

    F/Sgt Sydney James Herbert Young 424503 RAAF +
    F/Sgt Reginald Joseph Tudehope 424479 RAAF +

    who were lost with Anson DJ639. Check out the casualty files for those two men.

    They are also in many of the Canadian airmen's service files from the LAC in Ottowa.

    If your real lucky, with a Canadian or Australian man you will find a Form 412 which is a Court of Inquiry report. This has more narrative and findings again.

    I understand that the AHB has or may have the Form 765 in some cases. I have only seen one report from that source, sent to one of our airmens sons, it was redacted so they typed it out in word and removed details of mens serial numbers and injuries.

    I think what your on about is Form 1180 versus Form 765. i'd be a happy man if I had a pile of Form 765's.

    This is a 765:
    http://www.skynet.ie/~dan/temp/dw110/DW110_F765.pdf
    Last edited by dennis_burke; 3rd October 2011 at 14:44. Reason: spelling
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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    Are the 765 forms available for public viewing or by researchers?

    Or is it one of the military only files in the uk and if your lucky enough to find someones private research.
    Regards Scott McIntosh

    ACIA Researcher

    Search for Air Crash Investigation & Archaeology on Facebook for our groups page.

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    Hi all, by luck I found in past some Forms 765 here in Prague archive but there only few and covering strictly the accidents of Czechoslovak fighter pilots for some unknown reason to me.

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Default AHB

    Thanks prticularly Dennis and Old Duffer
    The riddle I was trying to resolve was actually if there was any difference between the crash cards at Hendon and the ones at Northolt.
    Thanks, as it appears not.
    I'm thinking that the AM765 is related more spcifically to boards of enquiry rather than just brief record such as was the case in the war when perhaps time for detailed enquiries was more 'of the essence' than it is today and crashes were in the main resultant of enemy action.
    It is very useful to know however that in such cases such enquiries may be found in Aircrew files where relevant.

    Next question I'm afraid, is how may I approach the Air Historical Branch to view their crash cards?
    Hendon will dispatch the odd copy, and I've got 2, but I have a feeling their resources limit access to line fishing rather than a trawl.
    Dave

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    Dave

    To contact the AHB you can either write to them here:

    The Air Historical Branch (RAF)
    MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
    Bentley Priory Building, RAF Northolt, West End Road, Ruislip
    Middlesex HA4 6NG

    or email them here:
    ahb.raf@btconnect.com

    I emailed them for details of my uncle's aircraft. I'd previously been told that they very rarely send out copies of the AM 765 . Why they don't conserve what they've got and digitise them so they can be made available easily I don't know, probably the cost involved. Here's what I got in response:

    "Thank you for your e-mail of 26 February 2011 seeking a copy of or information from Air Ministry Form 765c relating to the loss of Stirling R9329 on 21 August 1942. I can confirm that we hold a copy of the F765c but it is very fragile and in a poor state, having been produced on wartime paper and much handled in the succeeding years. I have therefore extracted the information below from it:

    “The aircraft was returning from a mining operation and from the accounts of the other aircraft in the area it is likely that this was the one heavily engaged by to [2?] ground defences and probably damaged. Return would therefore be made at low level and it would appear that allowance was not made for rising ground, up to 600’, in the area where landfall was made”"

    They went on to tell me how to get copies of the squadrom ORB and my uncle's service record.

    I understand that the 765 usually consists of 4 pages:

    Page 1 gives details of date & time of loss, location, Group, Command, Unit, nature of the flight, time of day and information about the aircraft (Type, Mk, Serial, Engine Type & Nos.) and extent of damage.
    Page 2 has a full crew list with position on the a/c, name & initials, rank, service number, result to personnel and the pilot & 2nd pilot hours.
    Page 3 gives a description of the accident and any supporting remarks and
    Page 4 has remarks by the Unit Commander and Station Commander

    So I got very little!

    Dave

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    Some of the OTU ORBs contain certified copies of Form 765 and occasionally Form 412.

    Comparing the info in the completed Form 765 to the corresponding Form 1180 shows that a number of items are transcribed faithfully onto the Fprm 1180

    >Page 1 gives details of date & time of loss, location, Group, Command, Unit, nature of the flight, time of day and information about the aircraft (Type, Mk, Serial, Engine Type & Nos.) and extent of damage.

    This is fully transcribed onto the Form 1180

    >Page 2 has a full crew list with position on the a/c, name & initials, rank, service number, result to personnel and the pilot & 2nd pilot hours.

    Form 1180 give this in full for captain only but has number of killed and number of injured.

    >Page 3 gives a description of the accident and any supporting remarks and

    Form 1180 has an abbreviated version but the description of accident is essentially the same

    >Page 4 has remarks by the Unit Commander and Station Commander

    Form 1180 has these transcribed in full.

    >So I got very little!

    Looks like AHB has added the detail on accident not fully described on the Form 1180.

    In essence the only info on a Form 765c that I cannot derive from other sources is confirmation of full crew and service numbers (but this is not necessary for a solo flight or a single seater loss).

    Regards
    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015/2018 - All rights reserved.

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    Hi Ross
    Looks like I should have said "I got very little extra". Actually rereading the Form 1180 the info transcribed by the AHB is on there. I think the problem I had was that not having seen an AM 765 I was hoping that it would shed some light on the final minutes of my uncle's flight. According to M.J.F. Bowyer the aircraft was fired on and shot down by British AA guns as it presumably passed over Plymouth. I subsequently raised this with the AHB and they have no record of this happening.

    Dave

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    Regarding access to the Form 1180 raised by Dave Cullen.

    I have found two ways to view bulk Form 1180.

    1. Visit Hendon DoRIS. You have to book as the reading room is better described as the desk in the reading broom cupboard. You will be given access to the microfilm reels to spool through at your own speed. The microfilm reader is linked to a laser printer but more than a few copies can soon mount up in cost.

    2. Hendon will supply a copy of a complete microfilm reel to order. Takes a few months but typically they are £25 per reel (price is on actual length) postage etc extra. They are 16mm but most public library have a microfilm reader that you can use saving the time and expense of trips to Hendon.

    A couple of comments on the reels.
    They are in year order and contain several type of aircraft. It may be that the particular type is also split over two or more sequential reels.

    eg Reel 16-20

    Covers 1941
    Battle
    Beaufighter (some misfiled other types included)
    Beaufort
    Blenheim up to 30/4/41

    I've had some indication from DoRIS that they may provide CD/DVD instead of microfilm but it is on a complete reel basis and have not given any indication of cost other that that it would be per image.

    As a market test I have a couple of reels that DoRIS supplied to me being converted by a commercial company. The quoted rate is:
    To scan 16mm microfilm reels at 200dpi, jpeg images – 2.5p per image.
    CD/DVD - £5.00 each.

    Until the pilot is done I cannot say the total cost per reel.

    Regards
    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015/2018 - All rights reserved.

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