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Thread: Looking for details of 10 OTU Whitley 14 March 1941

  1. #11
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    COL BRUGGY

    Great info - much interest. Would be much appreciat on what "Franks,Norman & Eric Zimmerman" has to say about activities on 9 May 1943. Briefly I know Halifax HR743 (58 Sqdn RAF/N, pilot F/S J.A. Hoather, DFM) attacked U666 At 10.28 hours and was shot down killing all crew. Then around 12:30 my uncle's crew (10 OTU St Eval Whitley BD278 "C" Pilot A.J Salvage) sighted the same U666 dropping 5 D/C's (6th hanging up). Sub dived. Then 10 minutues later they sighted and attacked another sub (does Franks,Norman & Eric Zimmerman have any info on this? - I don't know whcih sub it was?). D/Cs expended could only straff and took hits then returned to base.

    Am really interested on what Franks,Norman & Eric Zimmerman has to say about that day

    Cheers
    Rodger

  2. #12
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    Hi Rodger,

    Franks and Zimmerman cover the action on 9-5-1943. In fact, devote a chapter (A Double Kill - Almost pp.28-9), to the proceedings. Bit lengthy to transcribe, so l will restrict my quote to BD278's involvement.

    Just over two hours later, U-666 was located again, this time in Grid BE6979. Once again she stayed on the surface and fought back, the gunners claiming hits on an attacking Whitley, and although it was not seen to be shot down, was claimed as a probable. The KTB record:

    "Aircraft type Whitley 2-engined. Flak, strafing from the aircraft. Aircraft receives flak hits and emits smoke stream. At a distance of 300 metres it ditches its bombs and flies away. Crash dive."

    In fact, it was a Whitley of No.10 OTU, the Bomber Command OTU loaned to Coastal. Aircraft 'C' (BD278) had taken off at 0732 hours, passed Bishop's Rock - a focal point and a good check on position for aircraft heading for the Bay - at 0817. At 1054 they investigated two Spanish trawlers, and at 1225 sighted and attacked a U-boat with D/Cs and machine-gun fire. The aircraft was hit in the tail by the boat's gunners and the pilot wisely headed for home, landing back at 1600.

    Sgt A J Savage [sic] - Pilot
    P/O R N Searle
    Sgt F J Baker
    Sgt M Hampson
    Sgt I G Davies
    Sgt D W Milliken

    U-Boats v. Aircraft/Franks & Zimmerman. pp.28-9

    No scanner, perhaps another Forum member can help.

    Col.




    Col.

  3. #13
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    Thanks Col,

    Chorley also misspelled but later corrected Salvage. Milliken, the rear gunner, was my uncle. Guessing that Franks and Zimmerman must be relying mostly on German records as the ORBs characterize the attack quite differently quoting

    Up 0732 Down 1600
    0817 B.Rock. 1054 sighted 2 Spanish trawlers. 1225 sighted and attacked U/Boat with D.Cs and gun fire. Attacked U/Boat in posn MRWD 1713. 5 D.C's Torpex (1 hanging up) were released from 50 ft. 5 secs after U/Boat had submerged. Explosions were observed, the nearest estimated 55 ft short of apex of swirl and 40 ft to port. Nothing further was seen. At 1236 a second U/Boat was seen in posn MRWD 2917. As a/c approached U/Boat opened fire and bomb aimer replied with front gun obtaining hits on C/T. A/C passed over U/Boat at 50 ft. and R/G opened fire and obtained numerous hits on C/T and hull. A/C was hit in tail plane with 1 small calibre bullet. As A/C passed out of range U/Boat was seen to dive. 1555 Travose Head. Sea moderate, swell, no rain, weather fair. Visibility 6-8 miles. Patrol 2500 ft. end quote

    At any rate I need to purchase a copy

    Cheers
    Rodger
    Last edited by rmventuri; 17th May 2012 at 17:17. Reason: ops - correct spelling of misspelled

  4. #14
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    COL BRUGGY, Linzee, Mark & Rodger
    Many thanks for the fantastic info regarding Sgt Walter I Ettle & F/O Gordon W F Button. I have been to see F/O Button's niece today and shared your info with her. She did not know what squadron etc he was flying with.
    They are both ex-pupils of Midsomer Norton County School, Nr Bath and, as a retirement project, I am researching the 18 young men named on the school's Role of Honour. It is interesting that neither of these airmen had a Squadron mentioned on their CWGC information. Was this general practice with OTUs or just 10OTU?

    Anyway thanks again for the brilliant info.

    Anne

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    Hi there, yes its a sadly common practice with most units not of Squadron status. it means that almost all the casualties of training accidents at training units, AFU's, OTU's, BFTS, B&GS's, AGS's, RS's, the list is long, also independant Flights, ones with four digit numbers and name only flights, hundreds of men.

    This is one of the reasons for Henk Weltings extensive threads on the forum here:
    http://www.skynet.ie/~dan/war/henksthreads.html

    I'm sure someone can advise why it became a policy of the CWGC to do this or maybe it was practice of the Air Ministry to only advise Squadrons.

    There are exceptions to the rule of course and you will find occasional OTu etc casualties listed as such.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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    Thanks for that Dennis

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    Default RAF King's Regulation, Para 2349 Regarding Injury or Loss

    [QUOTE=dennis_burke;76266]Hi there, yes its a sadly common practice with most units not of Squadron status. it means that almost all the casualties of training accidents at training units, AFU's, OTU's, BFTS, B&GS's, AGS's, RS's, the list is long, also independant Flights, ones with four digit numbers and name only flights, hundreds of men. QUOTE]

    Hello Dennis, Anne, Colin, Linzee & Rodger

    Although I realise that what I am about to quote, is sadly not the case regarding some Operations Record Books in reality.

    The World War 2 editions of "The King's Regulations and Air Council Instructions for the Royal Air Force" Chapter XXX titled "Correspondence, Publications, Records, Maps, Stationery." paragraph 2349 states regarding the "Operations Record Book" ...

    "Entries should include -"
    "(g) a record of casualties to officers, airmen and any troops or civilians attached (i.e. killed, wounded, etc.)."

    Some ORBs are missing casualty information despite it a requirement laid down in the King's Regulations and I often wonder why the RAF failed to record the injury or death and breached the Regulation in the King's Regulations.

    The A.H.B. have stated to me that they would supply information where the information cannot be found in official documents at The National Archives, or on Flying accident Accident Cards at the RAF Museum.

    Regards Mark
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 18th May 2012 at 14:29. Reason: "Operations"

  8. #18
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    Col

    I was about to purchase U-Boat Versus Aircraft: The Dramatic Story Behind U-Boat Claims in Gun Action with Aircraft in World War II by Norman Franks and Eric Zimmerman

    And notice the following also by Franks
    Conflict Over the Bay: Momentous Battles Fought by RAF and American Aircraft Against the U-Boats, Bay of Biscay May-August 1943 by Norman Franks

    Any idea on the difference other than the second one seems to focus on a tight timeframe?

    Cheers
    Rodger

  9. #19
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    Rodger,

    The two volumes you mention, complement one another really. You would never be satisfied with having one, and not the other. Conflict Over The Bay (make sure you get the updated & revised 1999 edition), given the restrictions of the time period, is useful in that it has chronological tables listing U-boat losses and aircraft casualties. There is also some variation in detail with U-Boat v. Aircraft, ie:

    9 May 1943

    A 10 OTU Whitley had the only reported excitement*. Sergeant A J Savage [sic] saw a wake, then the surfaced U-boat at 12.28 pm on which he dropped D/Cs (although one hung-up). Twelve minutes later a little to the north-west he spotted a second U-Boat, his front gunner exchanging fire with eight men seen on the conning tower. The Whitley received a hit in the tailplane, but then the submarine dived. This was U-666 again, her gunners scoring hits on a second aircraft this day but this time the fire was not so accurate.

    APPENDIX IV: COASTAL COMMAND CASUALTIES OVER THE BAY, MAY TO AUGUST 1943.

    Date: 9 May
    Sqdn: 10 OTU
    Aircraft: Whitley BD728 'C'
    Cause: U-Boat attack
    Result: Damaged
    Crew: Sgt A.J.Savage & crew safe.

    Conflict Over The Bay/Franks pp.32 & 194.

    * I have omitted details of F/Sgt Hoather's No.58 Sqn Halifax (HR743) loss earlier in the day.

    Get my drift about needing to have both?

    One other useful volume is:

    Search, Find and Kill:The RAF's U-Boat Successes in World War Two.
    Franks,Norman
    London:Grub Street,1995

    Col.
    Last edited by COL BRUGGY; 20th May 2012 at 01:11.

  10. #20
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    Col,
    Much thanks. I will purchase both as this is part of our family history and would have never known without your and this fabulous forums input. Again much thanks

    Cheers
    Rodger

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