Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: identity of shot down bomber nr. Morsang, S. Paris 20-21 April 1944?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    428
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default identity of shot down bomber nr. Morsang, S. Paris 20-21 April 1944?

    Dear all,

    I have found a claim report for a Bomber Command 'heavy' shot down on 20-21 April 1944 by Major Thimmig, Kommodore of NJG4, who claimed a bomber shot down with a single burst of Schräge Musik cannon fire from his Bf110 G-4 to the south of Paris. In his Abschussmeldung, Thimmig reported that his adversary, which he identified as ‘probably a Lancaster’ went down trailing flames from both wings and fuselage and that the crew of 7 were all found dead at the crash location near Morsang. The complete claim details reads as follows:

    Maj. Wolfgang Thimmig: 20 Stab NJG4 prob. Lancaster near Morsang, 7 km NNE Bretigny, 25 km. S. Paris: 3.600 m. 00.38

    I have not been able to find a matching Bomber Command loss to this Nachtjagd claim; who can help?

    Cheers, Theo

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Caerdydd, Cymru
    Posts
    631
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hi Theo,

    I have two "K" Reports from 5 Group Lancasters on the raid to the railway yards at La Chappelle that night, both attacked by Nightfighters and both succumbing to fires in the wing as a result: -

    ND564 from 207 Squadron
    W4127 from 619 Squadron

    The narratives on both are basic, but give a good account of the attack. My guess would be ND564, which according to the narrative "was attacked from astern and below" and "crashed beside a Metro staion 6 or 7 kilometeres due borth of Palaiseau." It's not quite the area you're looking at, but isn't very far out at all.

    I could copy and send you the "K" Report if it was of use to you?

    All the best buddy,

    Greg
    Last edited by greg; 17th June 2012 at 10:41. Reason: Missed a bit!!
    "You can take the boy out of Wales,
    But you can't take Wales out of the boy!!"

    Greg Harrison
    100 Squadron and 100 Squadron Association Historian
    100 Squadron Researcher 1917 - present day
    1 Group Researcher 1940 - 1945

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,733
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts

    Default

    "France crashes 1939-1945" also lists Lancasters ND573, LL893, ND732 and ND748 as lost over France on 21st April 1944. According to the site, ND573 looks to have come down close to the "claim" area but other links suggest that it was lost without trace (all commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial)

    There are no Lancaster losses listed on that site for 20th April 1944 (1 Halifax LW692 PT-V / 1 Stirling LJ448 HA-D / Various USAAF)

    Regards

    Pete
    Last edited by PeteT; 17th June 2012 at 14:26. Reason: Additional Information
    Main areas of research:

    - CA Butler and the loss of Lancaster ME334 (http://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/ )
    - Aircrew Training (Basic / Trade / Operational / Continuation / Conversion)
    - The History of No. 35 Squadron (1916 - 1982) (https://35squadron.wordpress.com/)

    [Always looking for copies of original documents / photographs etc relating to these subjects]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    400
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Theo

    According to Bryce Gomersall’s book “The Stirling File” revised edition (published by Air Britain publications), a 218 Squadron Stirling LJ448 failed to return from operations to Chambly on 21 April 1944 and was reported to have crashed at Asnieres in France.

    Regards

    Douglas

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    6,470
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 36 Times in 35 Posts

    Default

    Hello,

    The A705 notes for AUS425232 P/O George Alfred Skinner RAAF at the NAA:

    SKINNER, George Alfred - (Pilot Officer), Service Number - 425232; File Type - Casualty - Repatriation; Aircraft - Lancaster ND573; Place - Morsang-Sur-Orge, France; Date - 20 April 1944.

    Unfortunately, not digitised.

    Chorley (BCL5/175), doesn't identify SKINNER as RAAF in the crew listing, but he does in the summary.

    See also:

    http://www.awm.gov.au/catalogue/research_centre/pdf/rc09125z019_1.pdf

    p.446 of 535.

    Col.
    Last edited by COL BRUGGY; 17th June 2012 at 15:29.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Caerdydd, Cymru
    Posts
    631
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Fair play Col, I reckon you've got that one in the bag!! I'd award myself a congratulatory beer if I were you :D
    "You can take the boy out of Wales,
    But you can't take Wales out of the boy!!"

    Greg Harrison
    100 Squadron and 100 Squadron Association Historian
    100 Squadron Researcher 1917 - present day
    1 Group Researcher 1940 - 1945

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    428
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hello chaps,

    Many thanks for all your interesting replies -I think that Col has it spot on, absolutely great! Thimmig's victim must have been 44 Sqn ND573. It does make you wonder though why Thimmig's claim report specifically mentions that the crew of 7 were all dead, but that no remains of any of the crew could be located during post-war investigations..

    Cheers, Theo

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Evening All,
    I came across some extra information that may be relevant to this thread (mostly from a guy called Jerome LeBlanc). Apologies for anything that’s got lost in translation – my French is a bit rusty!

    An official report from the Gendarmerie shows that a plane of unknown nationality fell in flames in Morsang-sur-Orge on the night of April 20 to 21, 1944. The crash caused no casualties among the local population. The police were unable to obtain any information about the occupants of the plane because it was guarded by German soldiers.

    However, in a book on the history of Athis-sur-Orge, we find the following information:
    On the night of April 20 to 21, 1944, (...) a plane crashed on the Stade de Morangis (close to Morsang) after having dropped its bombs (...). The whole crew was killed there. The remains of the crew were collected and buried in the cemetery of Bretigny. "
    It is likely that the bodies were buried by the Germans in the cemetery of Bretigny but today only two graves are unknown - other burials do not correspond to these crashes.

    A number of reports show that the other Lancaster to crash in that area on that night (near the Metro station at Antony) was probably ND564, so this does make it likely that the Morsang Lancaster was indeed ND573.

    I would be interested if anyone has any other info on this, as the Navigator on ND573, Bill Freeman, was my uncle.

    Cheers, Stuart

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    1
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Kiwi graeme

    Hello. Greg on 17 June 2012 refers to the loss of Lancaster W4127 following the raid on the railway yards at La Chapelle on 20/21 April 1944. I am interested in any iinformation as my father Jack Stewart Thomson was the Bomb aimer on the aircraft Six of the crew were killed and are buried in Poix De La Somme Churchyard with one evaded. I am particularly interested in the "K" report and of course any other information. I have been researching the crew together with other crewmembers relatives.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •