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Thread: 158 Squadron Halifax loss 4.11.44

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    Default 158 Squadron Halifax loss 4.11.44

    I would be grateful for any information on the circumstances surrounding the loss of this aircraft piloted by NIGEL BRUCE CARRALL 432117 RAAF, I think on a raid to Duisberg. I have the details of the other crew members. Additionally I know that it was the first mission for the navigator Donald Marr following his training in Canada, would this have been the first mission for the others?
    Thank you, David

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    Hello,

    Good place to start:

    AUS432117 CARRALL- A705 (48pp.):

    http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=1065180

    AUS432441 McGRATH - A705 (70pp.):

    http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=1073296

    Also take a look at the A9300 (31pp.) of CARRALL, here:

    http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=5373546

    The extracts from his Log Book (on p.4 of 31), tell the sad tale of his short career with No.158 Squadron.

    Dr Theo Boiten, in his Nachtjagd War Diaries (p.178), ascribes the loss of Halifax III LV771, as "Possibly", shot down by Oblt Kurt Matzak of Stab IV./NJG1 over Bonninghardt at 20:48. Best to wait and see what the revised edition of this work has to say on the matter.

    See:
    Nachtjagd War Diaries:An Operational History of the German Night Fighter Force in the West. Volume 2. April 1944 - May 1945.
    Theo Boiten (Dr.) & Roderick J Mackenzie.
    Walton-on-Thames:Red Kite,2008.
    pp.174-8

    Bill Chorley, in his history of No.158 Sqn., doesn't have much to say on the loss of Halifax LV771. He records the following for this aircraft's service with 158 Sqn.:

    Hakifax III (11 December 1943 to July 1945).

    LV771 - "Rosie Galapagos"

    02 Jan 44 - NP-R - 30 Ops. - Damaged 08 Mar 44.
    29 Apr 44 - NP-N - 05 Ops. - Damaged 18 Jul 44.
    12 Aug 44 - NP-D - 01 Op.
    - - - - - - - NP-Y - 13 Ops.
    BOCHUM. Cr. Wetten, Germany. 4 Nov 44.
    (F/O N.B.Carrall RAAF).

    See:
    In Brave Company:158 Squadron Operations.
    Chorley,W.R.
    Salisbury:Author,1990 (2nd.rev.ed.)
    p.275.

    Col.
    Last edited by COL BRUGGY; 2nd July 2012 at 03:54.

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    Thank you Col, very useful. The flight engineer and the mid gunner survived and were POW
    Last edited by dbrasier; 2nd July 2012 at 09:22.

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    Default 158 Squadron Halifax loss 4.11.1944

    Thank you to both of you. Donald James Taylor Marr was my half cousin and was never forgotten by his family. I started researching this very sad mission back in 1994. The MOD provided me with quite a bit of information. For a few years, I tried unsuccessfully to contact the 2 families of the POW. Your postings have enabled me to get a complete picture of what happened back in 1944, just 2 weeks before Donald's 21st birthday. Thank you. Sally

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    Three of the families of the crew from Rosie Galapagos are now in contact with each other and would like to create a website telling the background stories of each of these young men who died so young or had their lives changed, in addition to the bare historical facts. Any photos, anecdotes or family contacts would be gratefully received.
    Sally Corps amandine_nicholls@hotmail.com

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    Dear all,

    I was interested to see the re-opening of this thread. For the research of the Nachtjagd War Diaries 2nd edition, I would be interested to see if any new information surrounding the cause of loss of LV771 has come to light, especially from the two PoW questionnaires of the two survivors of the crew.

    Cheers, Theo

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    Default LV771 loss on 04.11.2014 Time over Target for 158 Squadron?

    LV771 loss on 04.11.2014 – Raid on Bochum – Time over Target for 158 Squadron

    We are researching the loss of LV771 on 4th November 1944 and have identified conflicting reports as to when and where they were shot down. Is anyone able to help with the Time over Target for the 158 Squadron please.

    A letter written in 1945 by one of the POWs from the crew states that the Air Bomber had said as they were going over Holland "the target was in sight" and the navigator had said on the intercom "five more minutes to go".

    The reports we have are:

    Australian Archives Investigation Report 20.05 1948
    “German documents state that this aircraft crashed in Wetten, House no 126 at 19.40 hours on the 4.11.1944”

    Luftwaffe Night fighter Combat Claims 1939-1945, Foreman, Matthews & Parry, Red Kite 2004, p223
    2x claims for Hptm Heinz Rökker 2/NJG2 N. Geldern 20:00 & 20:06
    (This information was kindly provided by Alan Cowland 158Sq Association Assistant Archivist)

    In Theo Boiten’s book, Nachtjagd War Diaries - An Operational History of the German Night Fighter Volume 2, on page 178, he suggests that LV771 was shot down at 20.46 over Bonninghardt.

    Please contact me if you can clarify any of the above information or if you have any information/photos to do with this Crew.

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    ORB details, give the squadron aircraft bombing times ranging from 19.30 to 19.40hrs

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    Default Time datum

    Sally,

    Times are always a problem when considering British and German reports:

    1. There's been quite a bit of discussion in the past on RAFCommands as to the time datum used in ORBs - whether it is GMT or local time - and in November 1944 British local time was British Summer Time - which is GMT+1 hour.

    2. Much the same problem is experienced with German reports; the basic time datum there was Central European Time (CET) which was GMT+1. However, local German time was CET+1 (or GMT+2).

    Having looked at a number of ORBs for bomber squadrons involved in operations against German defences along the Normandy beaches during the early hours of D-day I am reasonably happy the times are local time as that would make them consistent with times quoted for Army operations that day (which were always local time). I suspect the same goes for German reports in that they are in German local time - which would make tham an hour in advance of British local time.

    If Theo quotes 2046 I suspect that is 2046 German local time which, if you subtract one hour, becomes 1946 British local time. I'm unable to explain the apparent discrepancy with your other source.

    Nothing is ever simple in respect of time I'm afraid, and that's not helped by authors not quoting a time datum (and thereby implying they fail to appreciate there is a difference), but I hope this offers a probable explanation to the differences.

    Brian

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    Thank you to both Alan and Lyffe for responding to my post of 14th September 2014. Much appreciated.
    Sally

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