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Thread: Whitley P5005, 102 Squadron, 1940.

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    Default Whitley P5005, 102 Squadron, 1940.

    Hallo,

    Does anyone know of a photo of Whitley P5005 'DY-N' of 102 Squadron after it had been hit by another Whitley ('DY-O') landing after a night raid on 21 December 1940 ? P5005 was parked on Topcliffe airfield and had already been severely damaged in action on 12/13 November 1940.

    If anyone has a copy of 'BATTLE OVER BRITAIN' by Francis K. Mason please look at page 202. I believe the photo there shows P5005 after its accident on 21 December 1940 and not 15 August 1940. Can anyone confirm this ? It was certainly not destroyed or badly damaged on the latter date.

    Regards,

    Martin Gleeson.

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    Default Whitley P5005

    Hello Martin

    According to N. Roberts P5005 was descending and struck a hill at Moray, with 19 OTU on 15.6.1942. Three injured and two killed.

    Mark

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    Hi Martin, I'm also interested in P5005.

    I would suggest, though have no proof, that if indeed it was damaged at all on 15th August 1940 it was down to the enemy attacking Driffield airfield which damaged numerous aircraft of 77 and 102 Sqn. I dont believe it was damaged on this date from what I've researched though.

    I include both November and December 1940 incidents on my website with photos of the damage and admit that I was sent the photos years ago and not know there origins. I think it was (the now late) Eddie Fell sent me them but can't remember during a discussion we had about the December 1940 incident and trying to ID the aircraft. If they were in Mason's book Eddie may have scanned me them from there or got copies elsewhere. Dont know.

    November incident was Cheshire's DSO incident. There's a photo of the rear fuselage split open and I believe this was the damage to P5005 after this incident.

    The December date varies between accounts and Ive not sourced the ORB to confirm it, I am happy to go with your 21st Dec, I have it down as 28th Dec when it was hit by Whitley T4293. I have a photo of a very badly damaged Whitley and has to be the result of a ground accident. The serial looks to be P5005 when zoomed in. It was well smashed up.

    I don't like plugging my webpages on here but the photo is at "www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/aircraft/yorkshire/york40/p5005b.html"

    regards Rich

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    Default Whitley V, P5005 15th June 1942

    Hello Martin, Richard and Ross

    Although the crash was given as "F4" the P5005 15.6.1942 card marks the "Cause" as "COMB", which I presume is "Combat" with "Lost Contr" being marked "Poss." Time 02.17 hrs. Unit 19 OTU. Place Burgie Hill, Morayshire. Fire on the ground.

    "In flight, completed controlled descent through cloud, then turned right on circuit instead of left, crashed into hill 800ft high."

    "O.C.:- Presence of hill constanly impressed on pilots."
    "CO.:- No reason found for pilot deviating from normal procedure"
    "15/8"

    However, if the Whitley was fired on during flight, then Sgt E. J. Nelms, R85152 would naturally take avoiding action, hence the reference to wrong turn and possible loss of control.

    It seems that the narrative and cause numbering on these AM1180s are not the full picture!

    Mark
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 17th June 2013 at 10:43. Reason: Time

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    Hallo Mark,

    Thanks for that follow up. I used to think the Form 1180s were relatively straightforward ! A great benefit of this forum is that one constantly learns more about our 'trade'.

    Regards, and belated thanks to Rich also.

    Martin.
    Last edited by Martin Gleeson; 17th June 2013 at 12:43. Reason: Wrong name !

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    Hi Mark - Hope you might be able to help me my name is Tony Rodgers the ex station historian at Kinloss ref P5005 actually crashed about a mile and a half from my house, have you any more info than what is on the accident card for P5005,we have spent the last 6 months covering the ground at Burgiehill and the scare in Tulloch wood. we havent found any sign at all,we know the wreakage as cleared away but there is no sign of burning on the ground to a spade depth, the local police are looking to see if theres a report as bodies were involved.
    Thankyou for you time and effort
    Tony

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    Hi
    Whitley P5005 was damaged in a ground collision at Topcliffe on 28th December 1940 according to the link below:
    http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/...40/p5005b.html
    The damage on 12/13th November was caused by a Flak hit detonating the photo flash in the bomb bay causing a ten foot hole. This was during an atack on an Oil refinery at Wessling near Cologne. For bringing the crippled aircraft home the Pilot Leonard cheshire was awarded the DSO.
    https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/494762709038539236/

    When I can access my files I'll check for a grid reference, Pilot was F/Sgt Edward James Nelms RCAF from Saskatchewn whose child was born the day of the crash. Unfortunately his service file has not been digitalised.
    Alan.

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    I now wonder if a cross or notch in the "COMB" box on Accident Cards means a "combination" of causes, e.g., two or more causes?

    Whitley P5005 is mentioned by Cheshire after the war.

    I have some 1940 M.A.P., photos re the premature discharge of a photoflash in a Whitley, I copied them to Elliott (Rebuild a Whitley Project), as they show some of the internal metal frame, joints and rails etc. If I remember correctly they have the RAF Station / month stamped on the back.

    I'm left wondering now re the Whitley P5005 of 19 OTU crash on 15 June 1942, if there was some airframe failure, which caused the Whitley to turn the wrong direction possibly out of control. The RAF do admit possible loss of control and also give F4.

    F4 means the aircraft has descended or dived out of cloud and struck the ground, sea or hill.

    German Raid 15 August 1940
    I applied for all the Aircraft Card copies of the suggested Whitley serial numbers written off in the GAF raid and also looked at all the Whitleys used by crews, before and after the 15th August 1940 German raid on Driffield, as there was a question over the cause of one Whitley write off.

    It seems most of those written off in the German raid on Driffield 15 August 1940, were written off by 1940 A.M.O. A.71/40. I can't quite remember now from memory, what conclusion I came to, over all the Whitleys.

    If A.71/40 was to be used for writing an aircraft off when caused by enemy action, then generally there was a lot of aircraft write-offs and Aircrew losses due to other causes.

    Regards Mark
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 23rd January 2017 at 20:53.

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    No Passing Glory by Andrew Boyle of Putney, October 1953 / June 1955
    First Published 1955.
    Reprinted 1957.
    Chapter 5 The Leader, page 112 ...

    ... "Cheshire could not resist informing the colonel with the wan ghost of a smile that they had run into enemy shells predicted and set to explode at the very height recommended at briefing the night before. As for the effectiveness of the experimental flares which Group seemed so concerned about, well-perhaps the colonel would like to judge that for himself by strolling out and examining the charred, twelve-feet gap in the fuselage of Whitley P 5005."

    The A.M. 78 Aircraft Card for Whitley P5005 on the reverse has 27/12/40 FA.O. Cof A.

    From 1941 to:-
    78 Sqn 2/6/41
    43 Grp DA 24/7/41
    ROS. 8.8.41 CRO.
    78 Sqn 22.11.41 CRO.
    19 O.T.U. 30.12.41
    R.O.S. CRO 19/12 Cat R.C (??) 17/2/42 T.426 ?/2. [two letter/digit in brackets difficult to read, might be "2A" in brackets]
    19 O.T.U. 28.2.42 CRO
    Cat E/Fa 15.6.42 A259
    S.O.C. 19.6.42
    43 Gp Pgn16/P5005/E? 2

    Regards Mark
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 23rd January 2017 at 23:53.

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    Default P5005

    Quote Originally Posted by AL90 View Post
    Hi
    Whitley P5005 was damaged in a ground collision at Topcliffe on 28th December 1940 according to the link below:
    http://www.yorkshire-aircraft.co.uk/...40/p5005b.html
    The damage on 12/13th November was caused by a Flak hit detonating the photo flash in the bomb bay causing a ten foot hole. This was during an atack on an Oil refinery at Wessling near Cologne. For bringing the crippled aircraft home the Pilot Leonard cheshire was awarded the DSO.
    https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/494762709038539236/

    When I can access my files I'll check for a grid reference, Pilot was F/Sgt Edward James Nelms RCAF from Saskatchewn whose child was born the day of the crash. Unfortunately his service file has not been digitalised.
    Alan.
    Thankyou for your time and effort with this request over the weekend went up the hill had a walk into the woods at tulloch hill where if you look on google earth there appears to scar in the trees at approx 800 ft and the correct distance from the center of Kinloss airfield, asked the local police if they have any records as a report was made by the local police officer referance the two bodies that were recoverd and also trying to look into 56 MU who were responsible for the aircraft being salvaged from the hill, thanks to you all for your help
    Regards Tony

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