gareloch 1942

[thomas stone]

supermarine walrus l2179 crashed 14.07.42. landed with its wheels down.
crew members names would be most appreciated.
thanks. t.s.

[Ross_McNeill]

F1180 has this on the 17th, Pilot S/L P R Hatfield, 33315 injured. 3 unamed crew killed.

Regards
Ross

[dennis_burke]

I checked the CWGC there and one likely candiate is

LAC Thomas Reid 1070737 is listed on Runnymede Memorial.
The GRO war deaths index lists his unit as MAEE Helensburgh.

RAF Casualty Lists have him named alone as MISSING. BELIEVED KILLED ON ACTIVE SERVICE.—L.A/C. T. Reid.

later ammended to Presuemed killed in a later magazine.

This link suggests only one death:
http://thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/memorial/entry.php?id=89

Things may have gotten mixed up over the years?

[COL BRUGGY]

Re: 33315 S/L P R HATFIELD (later DFC, AFC [Berlin Airlift]):

Despite his Log Book being endorsed, "Gross Carelessness", in relation to the 17-7-1942 incident, it did not seem to affect his career opportunities:

http://www.hatfield-herts.co.uk/features/hat_w_people4.html

For; "In March 1941 he was given command of 204 Squadron (flying Sunderlands)", read; "In February 1943 he..."

For the incident involving the "U-boat"*, on 18-10-1940, see:

Search, Find and Kill:The RAF's U-Boat Successes in World war Two.
Franks,Norman.
London:Grub Street,1995.
p.209.

* Actually, Italian 'Adua' Class submarine, "Durbo".

Col.

[Dave Smith]

For what it is worth, FAA Aircraft 1939-45 confirms S/L Hatfield but says "another killed and two injured".

[Keith Bryers]

I have

33315 S/L P R Hatfield RAF (Plt) injured
77628 S/L D Passmore RAF ('crew') injured
81681 F/L A F Y Lees RAF (Plt) injured
1070737 LAC T Reid (Fitter 2E) RAF (30) drowned and commemorated at Runnymede, Panel 97.

A/c was from MAEE Helensburgh and coded 'P', it was inbound from Abbotsinch at the time of the crash.

Keith

[David Duxbury]

I wonder how many Walruses were badly damaged and/or written off in such accidents (alighting on water with wheels lowered). I know that this happened quite a lot, with at least two such cases occurring during service with the RNZN or NZ Division. Has also occurred with numerous other amphibians over the years. Unlike "normal" land a/c, which have built in features to prevent landing with the u/c "up", there is no such protection in amphibians as it would probably be impossible to conjure up a reliable device which could automatically discriminate the medium on which the aircraft was about to alight (land or water). Just in case any members were thinking: "How could an expereinced pilot be such a clot?"
David D

[Bill Walker]

David, even on the normal "landing on land" side of things,there is an old saying about the two kinds of pilots when it comes to landing gear up: those that have, and those that will.

Having spent 4 years flying amphibs in my youth, we learned to say, out loud, "I'm landing on water and my wheels are up", or "I'm landing on land and my wheels are down" on short final. Even this was not a 100 % assurance. Wheels down landings on water are still a very common accident cause today. (Although I'm lucky enough to still be in the "those that will" group.)

[COL BRUGGY]

Hello,

On October 4, 1935, Lt J de F Jago alighted on Portland harbour in the Walrus prototype K4797. Trouble is, he left his wheels down. To make it even more embarrassing, he had aboard the new C.-in-C., Admiral Sir Roger Backhouse. Although injured, everyone survived.

As a result of this episode, a Klaxon horn and undercarriage indicator lights had been fitted as a warning to the pilot to check the position of his wheels. Because of the noise of this device, it was generally disabled by the pilot in some way before landing - back to Square One!

At the time there was a regulation in force requiring the wheels to be left down when operating over land and flying below the cloud base.

Full story can be read here:

The Supermarine Walrus.
Nicholl,G W R.
London:Foulis,1966
pp.25-7 & 39.

Also mentioned here:

Supermarine Aircraft since 1914.
Andrews,C F & E B Morgan.
London:Putnam,1981
pp.146-7.

Col.

[Ross_McNeill]

Been doing a bit more on this.

Although the F1180 gives 3 killed and 1 injured I can find no other possible death, both military or civilian to match other than Reid for this day or for a week later.

So I think that the F1180 has been filled in in error and should have been 1 killed 3 injured.

On the back the reference to landing wheels down has been crossed out and amended to wheels up, with authority given as signal. So it seems that the landing was done with the wheels correctly positioned for water.

Prior to this Walrus accident a few F1180 for the type mention that the wheels dropped on alighting due to cumulative shrinkage and expansion of the wooden hull in water and subsequent movement of the brass screw fixings.

Recomendations are made for positive locking of some fixings against movement.

Regards
Ross