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Thread: F.1180

  1. #1
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    Default F.1180

    Would an Incident Report (F.1180) be raised for an aircraft on an opertional sortie if it came down in the UK, or were they only raised for incidents involving aircraft on non-operational flights?

    Best Regards

    Andy Fletcher
    Per Speculationem Impellor ad Intelligendum

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    Hi Andy,

    I have the F1180 for a number of aircraft which crashed in the UK on return from ops so I suppose the answer is yes. I have nothing in my area of research crashing on take off for ops so have no F1180 for those to confirm.

    Jim
    Jim Corbett

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    I can confirm that some operational sorties did find their way onto the Forms 1180.

    For example, I have a number of gliders which came down in the sea or were forced landed after tow ropes broke, on their way to MARKET and VARSITY.

    It poses an interesting question as to whether there was a demarcation line which, if crossed, changed 'the name of the game'. If there was, I do not know of it but suspect it might be the boundary between allied and enemy territory.

    Colin Cummings

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    Hi all,
    well a very long time ago I have got an explanation from the Air Historical Branch in this matter. I am not able to find it now but as far as I remember they stated that Air Accident Card should be filled for any accident which happened on allied soil (sea:) by any cause except enemy action...
    From my experience there should be following accident:
    - crash of fully loaded bomber after take off for sortie
    - crash of transport aircraft after take off
    - heavy landing from training flight/sortie when bomber was damaged

    But there are also some strange situation - I was not able to find FAC for serious crash but find some unusual:
    - aircraft crashed on airfield and its debris damaged another plane.

    HTH

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

  5. #5
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    F1180 was raised for any incident classed as FA (flying accident) as opposed to FB (flying battle).

    FA was extended pre war to include any damage inflicted on the ground while stationary other than deterioration and for any incident that caused third party damage.

    From 1939 the separate category of personnel injury was included onto FA.

    So for example a F1180 could be raised for:
    Hangar collapse/debris blown onto aircraft in gale conditions.
    Aircraft nosed over during maintenance run up.
    Groundcrew killed in a stationary MU airframe from a negligent discharge from another airframe
    Groundcrew/aircrew killed or injured walking into prop
    Aircraft crash at any stage of operational flight provided the primary cause was not enemy action
    Forced landing where the aircraft was undamaged but subsequent damage to property was caused during recovery.
    Aircraft damaged/lost on non operational flight
    RAF personnel killed or injured not due to enemy action while flying in aircraft owned by any nationality other than HBM. eg RAF trainee in USAAF aircraft at Alabama.

    A F1180 would not usually be raised for aircraft damaged over enemy territory and crashed/landed on the return but where the cause could not be ruled out until investigation they would be given FA category. Should the cause be determined as say intruder then the card would be ammended to FB and left in the present state.

    I posted a set of analysis cause codes previously but it gives a good overview of what, classed as FA, would be a F1180:

    T - Taxying Phase

    T1 - Bad surface of aerodrome

    T2 - Hitting Obstructions

    T3 - Hitting other aircraft

    T4 - Harsh use of brakes

    T5 - U/c drill

    T5a - U/cr drill at end of landing run

    T6 - Various errors

    T6b - Locked Brakes, poor drill

    T7 - Airframe defects

    T8 - Misc causes

    T9 - Unknown or not yet determined

    O - Take Off Phase

    O1 - U/c retracted too soon

    O3a - Hit other aircraft

    O3b - Hit obstruction

    O3c - Loss of control

    O3d - Other errors

    O4 - Other cause

    O4a - Other Cause, Airframe defect

    O4b - Other Cause, Misc

    O5 - Unknown or not yet determined

    O13d - Swung


    F - Flight Phase

    F1a - Unauthorised low flying or aerobatics

    F1b - Other types of non-compliance with orders for flight or Standing Orders

    F2 - Loss of control in good visibility

    F3 - Loss of control in bad visibility (cloud etc)

    F4 - Flying into ground, sea or high ground in bad visibility etc.

    F7a - Other Errors, Collisions

    F7b - Other Errors, others

    F8a - Other Causes. Airframe defects

    F8b - Other Causes, Miscellaneous

    F9 - Unknown or not yet determined

    L - Landing Phase

    L1 - Overshot

    L1a - Overshot, Flaps up

    L1b - Overshot, others

    L1c - Overshot - u/c damaged - u/c collapsed

    L2 - Undershot

    L3 - U/c retracted or not fully locked down

    L3ai - Pilot error Forgot

    L3aii - Pilot error remembered but did not operate correctly

    L3b - Technical Defect

    L3c - Not known whether 3a or 3b

    L6 - Heavy landing

    L6a - Heavy landing, hit other aircraft except after overshoot etc

    L6b - Heavy landing, hit obstructions

    L7 - Swung

    L8a - Out of wind, pilot error

    L8a - With drift

    L9 - Errors other specified

    L9a - Loss of control

    L9b - Others

    L10 Errors not specified

    L11 - Rough surface

    L12 - Other causes

    L12a - Airframe defects

    L12b - Misc

    L13 - Unknown or not yet determined

    L14 - Engine failure on take off, subsequent error by pilot

    L15 - Engine failure on take off, others

    L16 - Engine failed in flight, subsequent error by pilot

    L17 - Engine failed in flight, others

    L18 - Engine failed during landing, subsequent error by pilot

    L19 - Engine failed during landing, others

    L20 - Engine failed, subsequent error by pilot

    L21 - Engine failed, others

    L22a - Forced landing, bad weather

    L22b - Forced landing, lost, bad Weather

    L22c - Forced landing, lost, bad weather, fuel shortage

    L22d - Forced landing, bad weather, fuel shortage

    L23a - Forced landing, lost

    L23b - Forced landing, lost, fuel shortage

    L23c - Forced landing, fuel shortage

    S or M - Stationary

    S1 or M1 - U/c maloperated on stationary aircraft

    S2 or M2 - Others

    Regards
    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015/2018 - All rights reserved.

  6. #6
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    This is a snapshot of the 26 cards raised for one day 8th Jan 1942 and covers all accidents of the alphabetic types from Airacobra to Master (rest for the F1180 for the day to be added in the next month or so)

    I'm in the process of producing an online index and display feature but for the moment this is the raw images copyright of the RAFM.

    If you cut and paste the link you will get an acrobat image of the card (scroll down to see both sides). This will give a flavour of what was recorded on a daily basis on the F1180.

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/Z9740.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/AJ789.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/BT495.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/L4925.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/P4847.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/R3752.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/R9753.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/T3037.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/T3989.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/V9058.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/Z2161.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/AE619.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/Z9616.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/T1639.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/BE157.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/Z4424.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/Z4089.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/H0000.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/Z4355.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/P2919.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/AF961.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/T8321.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/L7459.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/L7496.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/N1295.pdf

    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/8_1_1942/Z2168.pdf

    Regards
    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015/2018 - All rights reserved.

  7. #7
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    Many thanks gentlemen for the comprehensive answers.

    Ross

    Thank you for the links. An online database of F.1180 will be an invaluable resource for aviation researchers. I realise it must be a massive task to catalogue and scan every card but when do you anticipate it will be up and running?

    Best Regards

    Andy Fletcher
    Per Speculationem Impellor ad Intelligendum

  8. #8
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    Depends on the final features but for everything years instead of months.

    The demo of concept has been undergoing Beta test for a while now and now needs some radical revamp on the user interface before the next issue.

    Jan and Feb 1942 will be fuly entered by Easter 2013 and used to fully agree royalty licence for image display from both the RAFM and TNA. If these are commercially agreed the database will allow search by date, aircraft serial, named persons, unit or name person nationality.

    Initial display is list from my database and is the most basic form that it will eventually be released. With royalty from RAFM then click on a link will give the image of the F1180. Subject to royalty with the TNA then clicking on a AIB button will bring up the AIB report associated with the record and a further button will give the image for the months activity from the unit.

    eg search on named person:

    Knowles

    this will bring up details of L6750 as above search terms in list format and the following links

    F1180 (currently copyright RAFM)
    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/24_1_1942/L6750.pdf

    AIB (currently copyright TNA)
    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/TNA/W1173.pdf

    TNA (currently copyright TNA)
    http://www.rafcommands.com/January_1942/TNA/No_51_OTU/January_1942.pdf

    So to decide the final content format Summer Autumn 2013

    1942 online in minimum format early 2014 - full format late 2014/2015

    Years 1919 to 1941 over the next year then 1943 to 1945 at about 1 year per war year.

    Regards
    Ross
    The Intellectual Property contained in this message has been assigned specifically to this web site.
    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015/2018 - All rights reserved.

  9. #9
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    Ross,

    Thanks again for a detailed reply and example. As I say it will be a fantastic resource, keep up the great work.

    Cheers

    Andy Fletcher
    Per Speculationem Impellor ad Intelligendum

  10. #10
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    Default In Flight "F6"

    Hello Ross

    Regarding your list of "In Flight" "F" Cause on Flying Accident Cards you can add "F6".

    The August 1940 RAF Statistical Causes list gives "F6" as:- "In Flight" "(6) Loss of control after hitting or avoiding obstacles in bad visibility"

    This "F6" was of interest to me, as the MoD showed me a letter for P5044 stating that P5044 hit balloon cables (in the plural) and the pilot was to blame. However, a letter sent from 77 Squadron to my Gt Uncle (a Solicitor) later in 1940 only refers to a balloon cable, as does the 924 Squadron ORB. On the Flying Accident Card for P5044 "F6" has been overwritten by "F9" - "Unknown or not yet determined" (August 1940). A letter sent to Mr M Macgregor of South Africa states that there was nothing the pilot could of done as the Whitley crashed due to circumstances beyond the Pilot's control.

    Other official records indicate that the Whitley was at 10,000 feet before losing height and suggest that the plane was already in some type of trouble before the cable was hit, crash landing only a few hundred yards from the cable. The AIB Inquiry was stopped near the end of August according to the document in the AHB and the investigation left "Ms" according to the AM1180, which I have discovered meant "Incomplete". A dictionary gives Ms as "makeshift" and "provisional".

    I expect the total burn out made it impossible to check the Whitley airframe.

    15 feet of the wing was found 2 miles away from the cable.

    It is a great pity that the AHB only kept an initial casualty letter, but did not keep the later/detailed report which cleared the Pilot. The accident Categories were:- FA; next FB and finally AO

    By 1941 F6 had been dropped from the list.

    Regards Mark
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 11th January 2013 at 12:45.

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