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Thread: 15-16 March 1944 Stuttgart raid Plot Map missing details

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    Default 15-16 March 1944 Stuttgart raid Plot Map missing details

    Dear all,

    When I got a copy of the Raid Plot Map (detailing the crash locations/cause/time of individual bomber losses) for the 15/16 March 1944 Stuttgart raid (from TNA, MPI 1/636), I noticed the following hand-written note on the map: "Crash & K Reports for this raid were sufficient for accurate analysis. Therefore Z forms + observations were not plotted." Regrettably therefore, the individual bomber loss entries are missing from this Raid Plot Map, only numbers (1-30) for individual losses are plotted, with each number a time of loss & cause of loss.

    My question is: is there still a list of Crash & K-Reports/Z forms for the 15-16 March 44 Stuttgart raid available, which will enable me to combine these together? This, in turn, will enable me to make a much better matching effort of bomber losses to the German night fighter and Flak claims. (I have recently obtained a virtually complete list of all Nachtjagd & Flak claims for this raid).

    Any help in this would be much appreciated!

    Cheers, Theo

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    Hi Theo,

    It depends on where your raid plot map originates from. Usually, raid plots together with Z reports can be found in AIR14/3213 (Raid plots) and onwards, not to be confused with the Interception and Tactic reports which also contain raid plots. March 1944 is in AIR14/3221.

    Regards,
    Hans

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    Hi Hans,

    Thanks for your reply -on re-reading my posting I saw that I perhaps gave a bit of a confusing term for these maps -the maps I am specifically looking for are the Missing Aircraft Plot maps. I'm not sure yet but found a posting by Rod Mackenzie (my co-author of the 2nd vol. of the NJWD) on the 12 O'Clock High forum sometime in 2010 which I think points to the Missing Aircraft Plot maps, I'll check with Rod shortly.

    Perhaps someone on the forum who has worked with the Missing Aircraft Plot maps at TNA/Kew can tell me for which individual raids in the following months these maps plus accompanying Z forms are available:

    AIR 14/3219 Raid plots : night 1943 Aug.
    AIR 14/3220 Raid plots : night 1943 Oct.
    AIR 14/3221 Raid plots : night 1944 Mar.
    AIR 14/3222 Raid plots : night 1944 Apr.
    AIR 14/3223 Raid plots : night 1944 June
    AIR 14/3224 Raid plots : night 1944 July
    AIR 14/3225 Raid plots : night 1944 Sept.
    AIR 14/3226 Raid plots : night 1944 Nov.


    This is an extract from Rod's posting:

    The Forms Y were individual crew reports (practically none of which survive at Kew) sent from Squadrons to the Group HQ, while the Forms Z were collated reports by the Group HQs sent to BC HQ and the BC ORS.

    The only Forms Z I have found at Kew (and I've searched extensively) are held in the Raid Plot: Night files in AIR 14. They are the copies telexed to the BC ORS. Sadly, the only files preserved are for selected months only between 1942-45, and even those don't include all raids during a month:

    AIR 14/3213 Raid plots : night 1942 Apr.
    AIR 14/3214 Raid plots : night 1942 July
    AIR 14/3215 Raid plots : night 1942 Oct.
    AIR 14/3216 Raid plots : night 1943 Mar.
    AIR 14/3217 Raid plots : night 1943 Apr.
    AIR 14/3218 Raid plots : night 1943 July
    AIR 14/3219 Raid plots : night 1943 Aug.
    AIR 14/3220 Raid plots : night 1943 Oct.
    AIR 14/3221 Raid plots : night 1944 Mar.
    AIR 14/3222 Raid plots : night 1944 Apr.
    AIR 14/3223 Raid plots : night 1944 June
    AIR 14/3224 Raid plots : night 1944 July
    AIR 14/3225 Raid plots : night 1944 Sept.
    AIR 14/3226 Raid plots : night 1944 Nov.
    AIR 14/3227 Raid plots : night 1945 Jan.

    Cheers, Theo

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    Hi Theo,

    The Raid Plot maps were extracted from the Raid Plot files for flat storage.

    AIR 14/3221 (for example) should still contain a range of Forms Z for the raids that were plotted. In the case that you mention, 15-16 March 1944, it will just be a question, in light of the fact that the Forms Z data was not required, of whether or not the Forms Z are still held on file.

    I haven't worked with all of these files, so can only make assumptions based upon the late war file that I had copied in entirety. Not every night will be covered, only the major raids.

    Without having gone through all of the Bomber Group or Bomber Command HQ ORB appendices, I've only ever seen the Group Forms Z on the Raid Plot files, and a very minor few within the Group Summaries of Operations files (AIR 14/3063-3085), with the latter appearing to be present in very small numbers due to mis-filing.

    Some Squadron and Station Forms Y (upon which the Groups used to compile the Forms Z) are in non-British archives - the Australian War Memorial has those for 466 Squadron, and Library and Archives Canada has some for the 6 Group stations (as discovered by Richard Koval a number of years ago).

    The only way to know which raids are covered in the Raid Plot files for a particular month would be by either knowing what the nights covered by the maps are, or by going through each file and cataloguing the groups of Forms Z.

    In AIR 14/3227, for January 1945, only the following nights were covered - 2-3, 5-6, 6-7, 7-8, 14-15, 16-17, and 28-29 January.

    Cheers

    Rod

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    Hi Rod,

    Thanks a lot mate for providing these additional details, I'll try and do a search along the lines that you propose. Too bad though that the Raid Plot maps for the big raids in Nov-Dec 43 & Jan-Feb 44 are missing, these would provide quite a few answers!

    Cheers, Theo

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