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Thread: RAF Casualty Packs 1939-45 Public Access

  1. #111
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    East Sussex
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts


    Dear Jagan
    Thank you. That is very helpful information.
    Best wishes

  2. #112
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post


    Quote Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski View Post
    Ah, I have wondered what a sort of conspiracy this could be. That said, I must say I am quite disappointed with the records that I have seen. I expected accounts/narratives like in MACRs, exact location of crashes, photos. Or I am unlucky.
    Hello All

    I was hoping for more detail in an AIR 81 file (fully photographed).

    However, the AIR 81 files are only the Air Ministry P4 Casualty Branch to record a Casualty.

    However, the file does prove that the Accidents Investigation Branch of the Air Ministry still had control of the wreckage of Whitley P5044 three days after the crash and according to the In Flight numbering F6, F9, F8 & F4 - Statistical Reports on Flying Accidents SD96 (AIR 10/3913) the Balloon Barrage was ruled out as the main cause.

    The Part B of the file is not released.

    My family always understood the AIB were involved and that despite the admission of a balloon being involved in a formal reply to my family by the 77 Squadron Adjutant, verbally the CO claimed the exact cause of their accident was unknown.

    AIR 81 suggests FB initially in 1940 but also confirms after WW2 the Casualties should be changed to being in a "Flying Accident." [Seems the AIB discontinued the investigation in 1940 if FB was suggested].

    The AIB leave their Cause box blank, but their Registry pre-fix relates to Engine group accidents. This successor organisation now refuse to supply any further information under a European Directive.

    After the war we were told by Official sources they were flying up Southampton Water and visual SOS Verys were seen. GPO records record an SOS from an aircraft early (if the dated and numbered entry were in order by time) and various ships and aircraft. However, some ex-Official a GPO Archivist in the 1980s had the detailed 1939 to 1944 GPO Telecommunications files destroyed, suggesting to our PRO that these preserved Public Records ought to be destroyed.
    [The destroyed files would be of tremendous value now to many aircraft and ship researchers. However, a complete set of lists survive of every 1939 to 1944 Distress / SOS listed by the GPO, aircraft types and ships are named and the GPO Station is named dealing with it]

    The 1940 AIR 81 files photograped (of interest) are absolutely awful regarding the facts surrounding the loss.

    It was possible to build up a picture of what happened from official files at various English archives and sources. I find the official surviving AIR 81 file (whilst not a lie) is woefully short of mentioning all these other actual facts found elsewhere. (However, AIR 81 is not usually the Investigation file!)

    I don't believe some of those early WW2 summaries on Flying Accident Cards AM1180, especially some of those suggesting qualified pilots or crew were to blame!

    Last edited by Mark Hood; 14th December 2019 at 23:49.

  3. #113
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post


    'just an interesting note, which I'm not sure has been brought up before.

    Up to and including the latest tranche of files transferred to TNA (up to AIR 81/11673), I notice that 25 files are "missing at transfer" -

    AIR 81/166
    AIR 81/266
    AIR 81/6176
    AIR 81/7424
    AIR 81/7426
    AIR 81/8939
    AIR 81/10174
    AIR 81/10306
    AIR 81/10750
    AIR 81/10751
    AIR 81/10753
    AIR 81/10756
    AIR 81/10761
    AIR 81/10762
    AIR 81/10763
    AIR 81/10764
    AIR 81/10768
    AIR 81/10769
    AIR 81/10770
    AIR 81/10771
    AIR 81/10772
    AIR 81/10773
    AIR 81/10781
    AIR 81/10782
    AIR 81/11658

  4. #114
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Thanked 253 Times in 236 Posts


    I would imagine that they have been misfiled and may turn up later as can be seen (unless lost)

    What is apparent is that there must be a master index of the files and that is what they have transcribed

    AIR 81/166 -> (Trance 1) Previously missing at transfer , found August 2014
    AIR 81/266 -> (Trance 1) Previously missing at transfer, found August 2014
    AIR 81/6176 -> (Trance 6) Previously missing at transfer, found November 2018
    AIR 81/7424 -> (Trance 6) Previously missing at transfer, found November 2018
    AIR 81/7426 -> (Trance 6) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/8939 -> (Trance 7) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10174-> (Trance 8) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10306-> (Trance 8) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10750-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10751-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10753-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10756-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10761-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10762-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10763-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10764-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10768-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10769-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10770-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10771-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10772-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10773-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10781-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/10782-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer
    AIR 81/11658-> (Trance 9) Missing at transfer

  5. #115
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Aubers, France
    Thanked 25 Times in 24 Posts


    Thanks Paul for that extra feed-back. I thought these missing files were lost forever, so it's good to see that they turned up later.

    I compiled my own listing with every trance once the news breaks off of new casualty packs in the public domain, so I need to check these 4 files (so far).


  6. #116
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts



    The first batch for 2020 was released on 18/01/2020 (till AIR81/13190).

    Best regards


  7. #117
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Thanked 253 Times in 236 Posts


    Thanks Luc

    Trance 10 Open Date: 18/01/2020 AIR 81/11674 to AIR 81/13190 Inclusive 1536 Files 1519 Unique References 1 Closed File

    1 Missing at Transfer

    AIR 81/12501-> (Trance 10) Missing at transfer

    Aircraftsman A M W Knight: injured; enemy action at RAF Kallang, Singapore, 27 January 1942. Missing at transfer

    1 Closed File AIR 81/12767/1

    Pilot Officer D E Lloyd: killed; Spitfire P7307, 61 Operational Training Unit, Flight Sergeant T A Kreiger (Polish): killed; Spitfire BM140, 315 Squadron, mid air collision during practice flight over South Hayes, Middlesex, 17 March 1942.


  8. #118
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Thanked 253 Times in 236 Posts

  9. #119
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Thanked 57 Times in 53 Posts


    I havn't seen last night any file for Hudson AM834 which was lost off Cahore point on feb 24 1942. It has two very distinct surnames on board, searched by Date and Cahore etc. Curious one.

  10. #120
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Thanked 253 Times in 236 Posts


    Known Opened in 2019 (29)

    Citable Reference
    AIR 81/476/1
    AIR 81/1492
    AIR 81/1530
    AIR 81/1551
    AIR 81/1555
    AIR 81/1582
    AIR 81/1587
    AIR 81/1595
    AIR 81/1629
    AIR 81/1650
    AIR 81/1655
    AIR 81/1711
    AIR 81/1736
    AIR 81/1738
    AIR 81/1778
    AIR 81/1827
    AIR 81/1838
    AIR 81/1861
    AIR 81/1865
    AIR 81/1874
    AIR 81/1876/2
    AIR 81/1880
    AIR 81/1906
    AIR 81/1969
    AIR 81/1974
    AIR 81/2040
    AIR 81/2092
    AIR 81/2285
    AIR 81/2408

    Known Opened in 2020 (so Far)
    AIR 81/2585

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