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Thread: Crash 20-06-1942, Vierhuizen (NL)

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    Default Crash 20-06-1942, Vierhuizen (NL)

    Can anyone shed his or her light on this?:

    At Urlum General Cemetry (NL) are the graves of 4 RAF personel who died on 20-06-1942, presumably in the same crash:

    NORFOLK, HOWARD. Pilot Officer. 102559. Date of death 20/06/1942. Age 25. Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve United Kingdom. Grave 4.
    SALWAY, ERNEST. Flight Sergeant. 749368. Date of death 20/06/1942. Age 22. Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. United Kingdom. Grave 3.
    CHARLESWORTH, WILLIAM HUSTLER. Sergeant. 987863. Date of death 20/06/1942. Age 21. Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. United Kingdom. Joint grave 5.
    'An Airman of the 1939-1945 War. Royal Air Force. Date of death 20/06/1942. Joint grave 5.

    At least, I think they must have been crew members of the same plane, since they are buried close together and Sergeant Charlesworth and the unknown rest in the same grave.

    The SGLO Loss List (ed.2008) states:
    T1612. Date: 21-06-1942. Time: 01.43 hrs. Crash: Vierhuizen (near Ulrum). Halifax II. Serial W1114. 76 Squadron. Pilot: P/O H. NOrfolk. Fate crew: known.

    http://www.backtonormandy.org/the-hi...lifax9543.html
    States however: date 20-06-1942 (which is in accordance with the dates on the headstones at Ulrum Cemetery), but also states: no information on the crew yet.

    I guess that in Chorley (1942) the names and fates of all crew members can be found. Has anybody access to that book?

    Picture of grave 4 (P/O Norfolk) and joint grave 5 (Sgt Charlesworth and the NN) at Ulrum:


    Stevin Oudshoorn on: http://www.basher82.nl/Data/Ulrum/charlesworth.htm

    (...) Flight sergeant Salway was not able to reach his parachute and jumped out of the aircraft, clinging to his friend, Sgt. Smith. This brave attempt unfortunately failed when the parachute opened and the jerk made F/S Salway loose his grip. Sgt. Smith and three others survived by bailing out. (...) The body of Sgt. Norfolk was found in the garden with an partly opened parachute hanging from a tree. A short distance away the body of the wireless operator/air gunner, Sgt. William Charlesworth was found. Together with F/S Salway they are buried at Ulrum General Cemetery."

    If I understand it correctly there were 6 to 7 crew members on a Halifax . Which makes me wonder if the NN in Joint Grave 5 was aboard Halifax II (serial W1114)? If not: why was he buried in a joint grave with Sgt Charlesworth?
    Last edited by Bart FM Droog; 8th February 2014 at 11:08. Reason: typos

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    Hi Bart,

    Chorley gives Halifax II W1114 MP-F, left Middleton St George 2328, hit by flak at 15 000 ft and then shot down by night fighter 0143 near Ulrum 21 km NW of Groningen.

    Five of crew baled out but tragically F/S Salway jumped clinging to Sgt Smith and fell to his death near Houwerzijl, 3 km SSE of Ulrum. The names you have are from this crew.

    Four POW...Sgt H D Jones
    P/O E A White RCAF
    Sgt R W F Painter
    Sgt D S Smith
    As to your fourth unknown Chorley does list several other losses that night where crew members have no known grave.
    hope this helps
    Peter
    Last edited by PeterColwill; 8th February 2014 at 11:08. Reason: Extra

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    Hello Peter,

    Thanks - but it remains strange. From Stuart Hadaways 'Missing Believed Killed. The Royal Air Force and the Search for Missing Aircrew 1939-1952 (2008) I got the impression that when the (re)burials took place sometimes the unidentified ones were buried together with identified ones - but allways of the same crew.

    Does Chorley list other losses in the same area that night?

    On the SGLO Loss List I see a few crashes in the North Sea / near the Frisian Isles on 20 and 21 June 1942 - but it seems unlikely that bodies of missing crewmembers of those planes washed ashore in the vicinity of Ulrum - one would suspect them to wash ashore on the German or Danish isles (other UK soldiers washed ashore and buried in Ulrum are two Army personnel, killed during Dunkirk, may/june 1940) - from Dunkirk to Ulrum is about 300 miles).

    The names of the Halifax crew members who were taken POW I checked on the CWGC-site: only one name corresponds with a missing RAF member, but since that particular name is so common they must have been two different persons:

    Chorley: POW: Sgt H D Jones
    CWGC: Jones, Howard Dennis. Flight Sergeant. Nr.1413674. Date of death (missing on) 21/01/1944. Age 22. Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. United Kingdom. Panel 219, RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL

    Regards,

    Bart
    Last edited by Bart FM Droog; 8th February 2014 at 11:47. Reason: extra

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    Bart,

    Chorley suggests there is evidence that this aircraft was shot down by Oblt Egmont Prinz zur Lippe-Weissenfeld for his 25 th victory. This is backed up by Theo Boitens Nachtjagd War Diary.
    Two minutes later he shot down Wellington X3713 of 9 Sqn. Chorley says the crew of this are all buried at Leens general cemetery.
    At 0156 he shot down 75 Sqn Wellington X3760 (both details from theo Boiten) which Chorley says crashed in the sea west of Ameland. Two of this crew are buried in Vredenhof Cemetry on Schiermonnikoog and two in Sage War Cemetry.
    Sgt C R Brailey RNZAF has no known grave. How does the geography match up ?

    Also from Chorley, a 7 Sqn Stirling crashed in the sea west of Bergen-aan-zee with four unaccounted for, Halifax of 10 Sqn lost without trace, 7 unaccounted, Manchester of 49 Squadron crashed of Friesan Islands, 5 unaccounted, and Hampden of 420Sqn shot down north of Ameland with three unaccounted. All other losses seem accounted for.
    Peter.

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    Hi Bart,
    Chorley lists in POW appendix that H D Jones, listed as W/O, was in Camp 357 Stalag Kopernikus, prisoner number 330.
    The others were all in different camps.
    So yes presumably two different Jones.

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    Hello Pete,

    >>Two minutes later he shot down Wellington X3713 of 9 Sqn. Chorley says the crew of this are all buried at Leens general cemetery.

    I've just visted to Leens General Cemetery (it's only a few miles from the village where I live). 5 CWGC graves there, all known:
    JAMES, LESLIE VIDAL. Wing Commander. 37770. Date of death 21/06/1942. Age 25. Royal Air Force
    BROOKS, ALFRED VICTOR. Pilot Officer. 114155. Date of death 21/06/1942. Age 22. Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    ADAIR, ARTHUR DUNHAM. Flight Sergeant. R/70976. Date of death 21/06/1942. Age 26. Royal Canadian Air Force
    BAXTER, JOHN DAVID. Pilot Officer. 103529. Date of death 21/06/1942. Age unknown. Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    BROWN, JACK. Sergeant. 629164. Date of death 21/06/1942. Age 21. Royal Air Force

    Do these names match with the names mentioned by Corley? Am I correct in believing that Wellingtons in 1942 had a crew of 5?

    >> At 0156 he shot down 75 Sqn Wellington X3760 (both details from theo Boiten) which Chorley says crashed in the sea west of Ameland. Two of this crew are buried in Vredenhof Cemetry on Schiermonnikoog and two in Sage War Cemetry. Sgt C R Brailey RNZAF has no known grave. How does the geography match up ?

    This is a very likely candidate. Schiermonnikoog is very close to Ulrum. With two crew members found near Schiermonnikoog, it could be that a third member would be found in the Ulrum area. If so - it could be imaginable that the Germans tought he was a crew member of Halifax II W1114 MP-F (because the plane circled a while before crashing) and buried him in one grave with Sgt Charlesworth.

    I've checked the names of the crew members buried on Schiermonnikoog and in Sage on the CWGC-site. All have as date of death 21-06-1942. Which is significant, since those buried in Sage must have been for a time in the water (in those cases the date of death stated by the CWGC is sometimes the date on which they were found). It also seems that the dates of death on the Ulrum graves are wrong: they died on the 21st, not on the 20th June 1942. The confusion is possible caused by the different times in use by the Germans and English.

    >> Also from Chorley, a 7 Sqn Stirling crashed in the sea west of Bergen-aan-zee with four unaccounted for.

    Unlikely canditate for the Ulrum NN. Too far away.

    >> Halifax of 10 Sqn lost without trace, 7 unaccounted, Manchester of 49 Squadron crashed of Friesan Islands, 5 unaccounted, and Hampden of 420Sqn shot down north of Ameland with three unaccounted.

    These are more in the vicinity. It's a pity no information regarding rank or nationality (except RAF) is on the NN gravestone in Ulrum.

    Regards,

    Bart
    Last edited by Bart FM Droog; 8th February 2014 at 13:58. Reason: extra

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    Hi Bart,

    Yes for X3713 those are the correct names and the crew totalled five. X3713 WS-J left Honington 2346 and shot down Leenstertillen-Leens, 20 km NW Groningen.

    Can give you the names for the"more in vicinity but thats probably not much help.

    Peter

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    Hello Peter,

    No, that won't help. I guess only the CWGC-file (if it still exists) on the unknown in grave 5 in Ulrum can give more clues. Does anybody know if it's possible to look into such a file? And if so: how?

    Regards,

    Bart

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    Hi Bart

    CWGC website gives Sgt Clifton Robert Brailey 404587 RNZAF died 21/6/42, Panel 117 Runnymede.
    The similar site in New Zealand gives details of his origin and that he was 23, but otherwise quotes the Runnymede entry. It does say that Christe and Fraser who are buried at Vredenhof were not buried until 14.7.42.

    "Forever Strong" a not always reliable source says he was the front gunner.
    cheers Peter
    Last edited by PeterColwill; 8th February 2014 at 14:18. Reason: extra

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