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Thread: 501 Squadron ORB November 1942

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  1. #1
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    Default 501 Squadron ORB November 1942

    Hello all

    I wonder would any one have the ORB for 501 Squadron for November 26 1942, to check what it says about a Spitfire abandoned over Northern Ireland.

    Our records here in Ireland and the Hendon Form 1180 etc tell us the following:
    Supermarine Spitfire Vc AD116
    501 Sqn. / Ballyhalbert, N.I.
    F/O Roy Stuart KINGSFORD 102557

    I've just been sent F/O Kingsford' service file and the postings are a bit confusing. Does the ORB place him with or near 501 Squadron?
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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    Hi Dennis,

    Don't have the ORB but do have the 501 booklet from RAF in Combat series.

    26.11.42 P/O R B Kingsford in AD116 / SD- A, on cross country flight, crash landed over the border at Ballybofey, Donegal. Pilot released across the border that evening.

    With 501 9.42 to 11.42, moving on to 152 in Mediterranean. "Those other aces" confirms the move to 152 and four victories with them but does not mention 501.

    regards Peter

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    Cool Peter

    thanks for that. I think the problem is that Roy's officer Form 1406 was typed up postwar and this posting home date was missed on the form,
    AM Form 1406 sht 2 420704 Attached to 22 Personnell Transit Center in the ME (O)
    AM Form 1406 sht 2 420828 Posted to 145 Squadron for flying duties in ME (O)
    AM Form 1406 sht 2 430123 Attached to 621 Sqn at (H) for a weeks flying experience on Spitfire IX This is a typo for 611 Sqn which is mentioned on the next entry

    Thanks for that information.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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    To add to the confusion, it is a long time ago since I looked at the ORB for this incident, but I recall that there was no mention of F/O Kingsford’s flight or force landing (not abandoned). What I do have is that Spitfire Vb (not Vc) AD116 carried the codes TM-A and force landed at Ballybofey Co.Donegal 26-11-42.
    Irish Air Corps files listed the pilot as F/O R F Kingswood and repeated this name in a number of documents.
    There is also a note saying “hearsay suggests an unauthorised flight” this would suggest a reason for the non ORB entry and the confusing name , but who confused whom?
    Regards
    Tony K

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    Thanks Tony

    I read that G2 report in the Irish MA during the past 10 years and I sure they give the pilots serial number. Also, the Form 1180 in Hendon confirms Roy S Kingsford as the pilot.

    Actually, I have a digital copy I took on one of my visits, forgot that! Will read it again.
    He did give the correct home address and next of kin so it must be a phonetics tings that they mixed up Kingswood for Kingsford.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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    Hi Dennis and Tony

    Your mention of the code TM-A has got me searching again. Have to admit the reference I quoted only said "A" not SD-A which I presumed (sorry).
    Spitfire- The History has AD116 with 504 sqn 30.9.42 before 501 sqn 19.10.42. TM was the code for 504. It was allegedly built as a Vb at Castle Bromwich not a Vc, but thats probably another Pandorras Box!
    The same source reveals that AD116 was a presentation aircraft "Twickenham I", so Air Britain tome on Presentation has long history and combat history with 303 Polish squadron with photo - IWM Photo CH5150. Again Spitfire Vb.
    After wheels up landing and repair allocated to 5th sqn, 52 FG USAAF at Eglinton 8th Sept 1942, transferred to Station Flight 13th Sept and then to 504 on 30th Sept for convoy patrols. Taken over by 501 on 19th Oct when they arrived at Eglinton.
    On 26.11 pilot became lost and ran short of fuel on cross country exercise. Force landed between Ballybofey and Stranorlar, Co. Donegal. F/O Kingsford who was injured allowed to return.

    AD116 taken to Short and Harland at Belfast, cat E (salvage) .

    The last piece about salvage also in Spit the history, and quotes 277.55 flying hours.

    Would the fact that both aircraft and pilot were allowed back across the border be reason enough to not write abut it in the ORB..........what were the local politics/agreements then?

    Hope there may be something useful here.
    Peter
    Last edited by PeterColwill; 5th March 2014 at 16:02.

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    Peter, thanks for that but for “presuming” you will have to write out 100times “I must not presume when dealing with Spitfires” I have to do it all the time!
    My understanding is that 501 Sqn took over 504 Sqn’s Spitfires at Ballyhalbert (501 then posted a detachment to Eglinton,) hence the 504 Squadron codes on AD116.
    The Irish Air Corps (aeronautical engineering section) identified it as a Vb when they examined it.
    A further note stated …. Flying Officer R F Kingswood, East Garden, Canterbury,
    Kent. As you say Dennis it possibly is a phonetic thing. Such messages were transmitted to ADC (Air Defence Command) by phone (bad line) or radio.
    The pilot was not interned despite the fact that the Spitfire was fully armed, the official policy had by then evolved to not interning Allied crews. The Spitfire was too badly damaged to suggest purchasing it for the Air Corps in any event Hurricanes were on order.
    Thanks Peter for that additional excellent information, any additions corrections or suggestion most welcome.
    Regards
    Tony K

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    I was hoping to avoid buying the ORB online. it might be that its mentioned in one part and not the other for the month maybe.

    Anyway, what Roy's son is interested in knowing is, could his father have been slapped on the wrists for this incident. They only thing that jumps out at me from his service record is the following, and the family are OK with me asking:

    These are the promotion details from the record and the London Gazette:
    410622 Emergency War Commission on probabtion as Pilot Officer in the General Duties Branch of the RAFVR
    420622 Confirmed in commision and promoted to Flying Officer, war substantive
    421219 Takes rank and precedence as if rank of Flying Officer bore the date 19 Dec 1942
    431219 Promoted to Flight Lieutenant war substantive
    440322 Takes rank and precedence as Fl/lt as if his appointment bore date 22 Mar 1944

    I'm looking at the 19 Dec 1942 information and wondering, was this a demotion of sorts, for him to be given a seniority date of Dec 19 1942, when his commision date was June 6th, in 1941 and confirmed and made an F/O on June 6th 1942? I would sort of expect he might have been made F/lt as of 22 jun 1943 all going well?

    in 1944 his seniority is improved to 22 March dates? Is this just normal paper pushing or can anything be read into it?

    best regards

    Dennis

    Are these just admin adjustments?
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

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