Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 17

Thread: An air collision over Caen during the daylight bombing mission on 7 July 1944

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    257
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default An air collision over Caen during the daylight bombing mission on 7 July 1944

    Hello,
    While reading the book by G/Cpt Eric Cropper "Back Bearings - a Navigator`s tale 1942 to 1974) I put my attention to the incident which according to the author, had happened during the daylight mission of bombing German troops near Caen in the evening of 7th of July 1944.

    Eric Cropper was posted to 103 Sqn and flew in a crew of P/O Alan Moore. During that operation t their Lancaster G-for-George was struck over the target by the bombs dropped from above and consequently collided with another Lancaster with the code letter "A", which damaged their tailplane and cut off the rear turret together with their air gunner F/Sgt Frederick Glyn Roberts DFM (1131282) who was killed instantly. The heavily damaged 103 Sqn Lancaster managed to reach UK and forcelanded at Tangmere being consequently written off. The other Lancaster "A" with their engines severely damaged had to crash in target area. Three airmen bailed out and the other four fortunately survived the landing with minor injuries only and eventually soon joined their parent squadron.

    The interesting thing is that however in Chorley`s BC losses series, F/Sgt Frederick Glyn Robert is mentioned among the deceased airmen in vol. 9 - BC Roll of Honour 1939-1947 with 07.07.194 as the date of his death, there is no mention of him and of the above described incident in vol. 5 - BC losses in 1944. I didn`t find any notice of this air collision in 1 Group ORB as well as among the Loss Cards dated on 07.07.1944.

    I wonder if there is any other source confirming this incident and if the other crew and their aircraft could be identified.
    Any assistance would be appreciated.

    Regards,
    Greg
    Last edited by Grexx; 11th May 2014 at 19:07. Reason: .

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    6,448
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 34 Times in 33 Posts

    Default

    Hello,

    There was only one other aircraft marked "A", that was lost on 7-7-1944. That was No.626 Sqn Lancaster I LM112:UM-A2 (see:BCL5/320). This aircraft was piloted by AUS422250 P/O (Pilot) John Charles ORAM RAAF. You will find a brief description of the loss of LM112, here:

    http://static.awm.gov.au/images/coll...070710--1-.PDF

    See: pp.2 & 7 of 31.

    P/O Oram RAAF, was awarded a DFC for his part in these events. The citation for his DFC can be viewed here:

    https:http://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/i...6706/page/4328

    Nowhere, is there mention of a mid-air collision.

    l believe Greg Harrison (an esteemed member), has a copy of the accident card for the 103 Squadron aircraft supposedly involved in these events.

    Take your hand off the bottle, sorry, throttle, and call home Greg!

    Col.
    Last edited by COL BRUGGY; 12th May 2014 at 00:30.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    449
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default

    Air14_3463 Summary of AC damage on operations\1944\07 has the following:

    July 7 CAEN "A"

    DAMAGE NOT DONE BY ENEMY ACTION

    103 G LM124 (B) - collided with 460/A over target.
    460 A LL907 (B) - collided with 103/G and crashed in Allied Occupied territory.
    550 L LL850 (B) - struck by bombs

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    6,448
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 34 Times in 33 Posts

    Default

    David,

    Thanks for clarifying the situation, vis-a-vis; LM112 & LM124.

    Incident was discussed on a much earlier thread:

    http://www.rafcommands.com/archive/03845.php

    Col.
    Last edited by COL BRUGGY; 12th May 2014 at 02:36.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Caerdydd, Cymru
    Posts
    630
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    I am honoured to be referred to in such glowing terms by you Col, thank you!! No ale for me all weekend either, despite a shoddy performance by my boys at Parc y Scarlets on Saturday evening in their last game of the season, that frankly would have driven a man of the cloth to seek solace in the devil's water :-)

    I do indeed have the Form 78 Accident cards for the Lancasters, as well as the ORBs for all the 1 Group Squadrons. Greg, I'll happily do a look-up for you, but it'll likely be later in the week as I'm at the National Archives in London tomorrow and Wednesday, and my Mrs has got me up a ladder painting the kid's bedroom today. If I get chance I'll have a look for you this evening, but it likely will be towards the end of the week.

    Best wishes to all as always,

    Greg
    "You can take the boy out of Wales,
    But you can't take Wales out of the boy!!"

    Greg Harrison
    100 Squadron and 100 Squadron Association Historian
    100 Squadron Researcher 1917 - present day
    1 Group Researcher 1940 - 1945

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    257
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Greg,
    Your assistance will be greatly appreciated, as always.

    Best wishes,
    Greg

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    11
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Apologies for all the Gregs turning up in this thread but..

    Greg(xx)

    What is your opinion on the book "Back Bearings"?

    I'm quite interested in the navigational side of things. The more technical/detailed the better.

    cheers,
    Greg

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    257
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by umk2 View Post

    What is your opinion on the book "Back Bearings"?

    I'm quite interested in the navigational side of things. The more technical/detailed the better.

    cheers,
    Greg
    Greg,
    The book is very interesting indeed as it presents the flying service of the author in 103 Sqn and in 1656 HCU in 1944/45 as well as his further RAF career after the war.
    Of course the text is full of (sometimes very detailed) descriptions of various aspects of navigation and its means. Having read it one may learn much about the progress in traditional navigation and radionavigation. For those who are fond of it, it is highly reccomended book. However, as English is not my native language, some parts especially those concerning the issuses related to advanced navigation, were a little diffficult to understand thus making me remind the knowledge of some basic trigonometric rules which I hadn`t done for a long time...
    Anyway, for you it should be a "must read".

    Regards,
    Greg

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Caerdydd, Cymru
    Posts
    630
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Afternoon Greg et al,

    I've had a chance to have a look at this now, and can report the following: -

    LM124, having been struck by LL907 of 460 Squadron, made it back to the UK and crash-landed at Tangmere. Although effectively making a normal landing (as normal as you can with the amount of damage the aircraft had sustained) the Form 1180 states that the "undercarriage was raised after landing to avoid other aircraft". The Form 1180 also notates the aircraft as being Cat "E", i.e. a write-off. I suspect that the reason no Loss Card was raised for this aircraft was that it crashed on return to the UK. There seems to have been an unwritten rule that if an aircraft was lost over enemy-held territory, then a Loss card was raised, but if it was lost over the UK or Allied-held territory, a Form 1180 was raised. That certainly seems to be the trend in my experience anyway.

    LL907, the 460 Squadron aircraft that struck LM124, has no Form 1180 raised for it, and no Loss Card. The 460 Squadron ORB states that it was a "complete write-off", but reference to the Form 78 shows Cat "B" damage (damaged, but repairable at MU or Contractor's works) on the date of the collision, with it later being issued to 1653 Con Unit in November 1944, via 38MU. So as LL907 was not a write-off, and has an auditable history after the Caen raid via the Form 78 and probably the 1653 Con Unit ORB (I haven't checked that unit's records as it isn't one of "mine") then I'd suggest that LL907 was not a write-off, but was repaired.

    Regarding LL850 of 550 Squadron, although it was damaged by bombs from above (2 x 1000 pounders according to the Form 1180) it doesn't appear to have played any part in the collision between the 103 and 460 Squadron aircraft.

    Hope that helps?

    All the best as always,

    Greg
    "You can take the boy out of Wales,
    But you can't take Wales out of the boy!!"

    Greg Harrison
    100 Squadron and 100 Squadron Association Historian
    100 Squadron Researcher 1917 - present day
    1 Group Researcher 1940 - 1945

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    11
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Thanks.. I've just ordered a copy and also "Navigator's Log of a Tour in Bomber Command" by Jack Rodgers.

    I've talked with navigators from 43/44 and 45, and with the technical advances, the 1945 nav had great respect for those earlier navigators.

    And although it's not technical, "Terror in the Starboard seat" by Dave McIntosh, a Mosquito navigator is a great read. I finished that the day it arrived.

    edit: Greg, re: LL907, Harry Holmes book has an additional "accident 28 Nov 1945"
    Last edited by umk2; 16th May 2014 at 12:38.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •