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Thread: Two 27 Sqdn casualties, 13/01/1940, Pakistan

  1. #11
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    Jagan Pillarisetti sent me a scan of a logbook page of an Indian pilot - quote "shows the first page where he started flying training with FTU Risalpur in November 1939 - the very month the recruitment in IAF was thrown open with the onset of war - lists the very same Tiger Moths. all K serialled."

    So definately a recording/painting error NOT a censorship issue

    We have a photo and logbook that shows that these aircraft had K serials, and the RAF gave them T serials in the historic records

    I think over to Air Britain Information Exchange for a view on this.

    Also, I wonder if the reason ONLY Whyte is mentioned in 27 Sqn, Flying Elephants is that he (of the two) may of been the ONLY one with 27 Sqn. It appears he may have been training to be a pilot from Air Gunner 'Sgt. Whyte crashed his Tiger Moth'. I wonder in Tinker was the instructor from 24 FTS Risalpur and his rcord on CWGC is wrong

    Paul

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    Hi Paul,

    The Feb 39 Air Force List gives Tinker as assigned to No.11 (Bomber) Sqn at Risalpur posted in 28 Jan 1938.

    Regards
    Ross

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    Noted that Jefford's entry for 27 Sqn in his 'RAF Squadrons' has:

    25 Sep 39 to Risalpur [also home of ITS(O)]
    1 Oct 39 unit tasked as an FTS until 21 Oct 40
    Oct 39 Tiger Moth (Oct 40)
    Oct 39 Hart (Oct 40) dets Kohat, Miranshah
    Nov 40 Blenheim IF (Feb 42)
    10 Feb 41 unit reverted to operational status

    Errol

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    BTW Both Tinker and Whyte are listed as KILLED ON ACTIVE SERVICE in the same casualty list. Not 100% evidence I know (both died on same date anyway) but indicates that Tinker is not illness.


    Fit. Lt. T. M Tinker (34254).
    Sgt. F. W. Whyte (338170).

    Also, I wonder if Tinker may have only recently transferred into the unit from 11 Sqn to help with the training tasks when as Errol states '1 Oct 39 unit tasked as an FTS until 21 Oct 40' so may not have been considered to be 'in ' 27 Sqn by those who were in 27 Sqn before the change in tasking (just a thought)
    Last edited by paulmcmillan; 14th May 2008 at 09:07.

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    I asked about these Tiger Moths on AB-IX and Chris Semmens replied as follows


    "This photo is also in Air Britain's "RAF Flying Training & Support Units" (new edition) where the mis-painting of these aircraft with K-serials instead of T-serials is commented on.
    Later this seems to have been corrected, at least on some aircraft, as photos exist of T1783 and T1784 painted as such, and in service in India. "

  6. #16
    Bart FM Droog Guest

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    Hello Paul,

    "Tinker may have only recently transferred into the unit from 11 Sqn to help with the training tasks when as Errol states '1 Oct 39 unit tasked as an FTS until 21 Oct 40' so may not have been considered to be 'in ' 27 Sqn by those who were in 27 Sqn before the change in tasking (just a thought)"

    This seems the most logical explanation.

    Regards,

    Bart

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    Jim Halley 'of Air Britain Military Serials fame' posted this for me:

    "The K-serial Indian Tiger Moths were part of a time-warp. Being used to all
    aircraft having K-serials for many years, the depot changed the Ts to Ks during
    painting!"

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    Have an unconfirmed note that they were transporting aircraft parts. Perhaps from Risalpur to Kohat ?
    Regards,
    Henk.

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    Malcolm Fillmore on AB_IX (an expert on all things De Havilland) has come up with the following:

    T1777 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur. To 5 Sqdn, Risalpur
    [3.41]. Accident 21.3.41.

    T1778 c/n 82580 ex VT-ALE Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur.
    To Risalpur Station Flight. Spun in & crashed following steep climb on
    take-off Kohat 13.1.40 & dbf; Flt Lt Tony M Tinker & Sgt Frederick W
    Whyte killed.

    T1779 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur [9.40]. Crashed on
    landing Lahore 30.9.40; repaired. To AHQ India Comm Flt, Delhi [41].
    To 224 Group, Bengal [late 42]. To 134 R&SU [8.44]. To 671 Sqdn [45].
    To RIAF 30.10.47.

    T1780 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur.

    T1781 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur.

    T1782 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur. To 1 SFTS [6.41].
    Crashed & overturned on take-off nr Saharanpur 14.6.41 [collecting pilot
    of forced landed Hart K2104]; not repaired.

    T1783 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur [4.40]. Crashed 26.4.40;
    repaired. Crashed 20.12.40; repaired.

    T1784 Toc 10.39 by ITS/27 Squadron, Risalpur.

    Note: The above eight were impressed to form the initial allocation
    to Initial Training Flight, part of 27 Squadron. They were initially
    painted as K1777/K1784 [see photo in The Flying Elephants]. One other
    was probably ex VT-ALH
    "

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    Default Reference Flt Lieut Tony Tinker

    Quote Originally Posted by Errol Martyn View Post
    "T1778 DH82A TIGER MOTH impressed in India" (Paul)

    This (T1778 aka K1778) is the one Bart is looking for. From Air-Britain's serials:

    T1778 27/SF Risalpur/ITS(O)
    Climbed steeply after take-off, stalled and spun into the ground, Kohat, 13.1.40.

    Air-Britain's 'RAF Flying Training and Support Units since 1912' records ITS(O) as being:

    Initial Training School (Officers); formed by 2.40 at Risalpur until at least 1.41; Fate unknown. Aircraft: Tiger Moth (T1779).

    Errol
    Tony Tinker is a cousin of mine and I have come across his name during a family search. He is buried in Baramulla Convent Grave in Kashmir and was, according to my records, killed during a training flight with Sergeant Frederick White. These details are printed in an RAF record log which I obtain through Ancestry.com. His father died in France in 1918 who was mentioned in despatches. I am surprised that this thread has no details of Tony Tinker.

    Regards, Chris Tinker

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