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Thread: Help with Information for Bomber Command Clasp application

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    Default Help with Information for Bomber Command Clasp application

    I'm having some difficulties with MODMO proving my late uncles eligibility for the above. He served as a radio operator in 625 Sq and was shot down on 10/11 April 1945 over Stavelot in Belgium.(With thanks to a contact via the forum in NZ who sent more detail on this) All the crew of the Mark 1 Lancaster(PD204) survived. MODMO say he also had to serve 60 days in an operational sq. I have his records which are not easy to follow but know that he was in OTU's 11/16 from July to December 1944 and I think HCU 71/73 to Mar"ch 1945..then to 625 Sq proper . Is there anywhere I can get details of missions flown by those units during those periods. He said that he was involved in raids over Dresden(which I think was Feb 1945).MODMO keep putting the emphasis of proof "that he did "on us would a reversal of this logic work? i.e "prove that he didn't".
    Also on his records there are handwritten entries that look like dates e.g 25/45,26/45,12/45 ..would these be wweks of the year/year or just a means of identifying who completed the entry .Thanks ever so much.

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    Your uncle would have still been training whilst he was at the OTU (Operational Training Unit) and the HCU (Heavy Conversion Unit) so he would not have been "operational" until after this period. Having said that, I believe that some operations were carried out by Conversion Units (to boost aircraft numbers) but I am not sure whether they just used experienced crews or training crews.

    You can get the operational records for 625 Squadron via the National Archives online service (although other forum members may have copies which they would be willing to share with you)

    If you would like any help deciphering his training, please e-mail me and I will annotate the record for you.

    Regards

    Pete
    Last edited by PeteT; 29th January 2015 at 18:32.
    Main areas of research:

    - CA Butler and the loss of Lancaster ME334 (http://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/ )
    - Aircrew Training (Basic / Trade / Operational / Continuation / Conversion)
    - The History of No. 35 Squadron (1916 - 1982) (https://35squadron.wordpress.com/)

    [Always looking for copies of original documents / photographs etc relating to these subjects]

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    Thanks Pete.. know from Wikipedia and you have corroborated this that HCU were used "operationally" but we can't prove that he did fly on these "operationally" and his log book, is sadly ,long gone.MODCO are saying that he went to 625 Sq on 8/4/45(I think it was early March..and would like them to accept/prove that his time spent in a HCU may count if needed). He was shot down 10/4 and returned 15/4..never in our family discussions did he ever say "Blimey, how unlucky was I ..joined Sq on 8/4, shot down 10/4 and back at it 16/4!") I have the telegram sent to my grandparents indicating 10/11 April.He spoke of Dresden and flew on the humanitarian aid flights over Holland/ brought troops back from Italy but getting the BCC out of the MOD is proving very challenging. Thanks for your helpful comments.

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    The 625 Squadron ORB can be found in AIR 27/2143 at the National Archives

    If you try this link it should take you to the relevant file http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ils/r/C2504783

    If you "Go to Browse" you can then find the months you need and download the Monthly Summary of Events and the Daily Record of Events for each month. The monthly may show the date of his posting in (if he was an officer) and the daily will show you the operations that were flown by the squadron, along with the aircraft and crews used.

    You may be able to do this with the HCU too, but you have not supplied the number so I can't check to see if there is anything at the archives.

    Regards

    Pete
    Main areas of research:

    - CA Butler and the loss of Lancaster ME334 (http://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/ )
    - Aircrew Training (Basic / Trade / Operational / Continuation / Conversion)
    - The History of No. 35 Squadron (1916 - 1982) (https://35squadron.wordpress.com/)

    [Always looking for copies of original documents / photographs etc relating to these subjects]

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    [QUOTE=PeteT;106954]The 625 Squadron ORB can be found in AIR 27/2143 at the National Archives

    If you try this link it should take you to the relevant file http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ils/r/C2504783

    If you "Go to Browse" you can then find the months you need and download the Monthly Summary of Events and the Daily Record of Events for each month. The monthly may show the date of his posting in (if he was an officer) and the daily will show you the operations that were flown by the squadron, along with the aircraft and crews used.

    You may be able to do this with the HCU too, but you have not supplied the number so I can't check to see if there is anything at the archives.

    Regards

    Pete

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    Thanks Pete..again!..think HCU 71 and 73, regards Steve

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    The award criteria of the BC Clasp states that the subject must have been 'aircrew of Bomber Command who served for at least 60 days, or completed a tour of operations, on a Bomber Command operational unit and flew at least one operational sortie on a Bomber Command operational unit'. I do not believe that HCUs were classed as operational units. As such, in my opinion, your quest to prove he flew an 'operational' sortie with an HCU, is a red herring. Unless you can show that he qualified with his Squadron, I have a feeling that you are not going to get the outcome that you would like. This is a shame, but someone always misses out on the award of medals/clasps. They need to be exclusive to make them meaningful.

    You asked a question about changing your approach to one of the asking the MoDMO to "prove that he didn't". By the sound of it, with his service record readily available to the MoD, they can actually see - and prove - that he didn't qualify already.

    Rgds

    Jonny
    Last edited by jonny; 30th January 2015 at 13:46.
    In fond memory of Corporal James Oakland AGC (RMP), killed in action in Afghanistan on 22 October 2009. Exemplo Ducemus.

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    Hi Jonny,
    I'm assuming then, that OTU's specifically the 1000 plane raids fall into same reasoning as the HCU?

    Regards,
    Rob Jerram.

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    Rob,

    Bearing in mind that we are talking the award criteria for the BCC here, nothing else; I believe that OTUs are not classified as 'operational units'.

    Rgds

    Jonny
    Last edited by jonny; 31st January 2015 at 12:33.
    In fond memory of Corporal James Oakland AGC (RMP), killed in action in Afghanistan on 22 October 2009. Exemplo Ducemus.

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    Excerpt from an unidentified AMO:-

    OTUs are not classified as “Operational Units” (except, and until, they may be temporarily classified as “Operational Units” so as to enable them to contribute forces in pursuance of a, mainly, media-orientated Operation. Subsequent to that Operation they will revert to non-Operational status. Except that should another media-orientated Operation be considered then they may, again, be temporarily classified as an “Operational Unit.).

    I did not write that spoof paragraph in the AMO – but I know many who might!!!
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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