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Thread: Sir William Sholto Douglas RAF service number

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    Default Sir William Sholto Douglas RAF service number

    Hi all,

    I would like to ask if Sir William Sholto Douglas had a RAF service number?
    The reason why I am asking is that I was unable to find it in the LG.

    TIA

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Pavel,

    RAF Officers were only allotted Service Numbers in September 1939, and then only to officers below the substantive rank of Group Captain. Consequently, Sholto Douglas never had a number.

    Jim

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    Jim

    Are you sure about this? I recently came across something where I found reference to a officer service number prior to start of WW2

    Basically as the numbers were allocated in the year the officer was commissioned or maybe passed out how did they how if to start number 33 35 etc and even earlier

    They must have been allocated before hand but prehaps never used ?

    Wish I could remember where I found reference to a number it may have been on a post 1920 crash I found on RAF vault

    Happy to be proved wrong

    Paul

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    Jim thank you for explanation.

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Paul,

    AMO A349/1939 dated 2 Sep 1939 - Personal Numbers of Officers of the Royal Air Force.

    "1. In order to supply a means for readily identifying officers and to prevent any possibility of confusion of names, it has been decided to allot personal numbers to all officers below the rank of group captain.

    2. The personal numbers of officers will be published in the index of the Air Force List against each officer's name. The numbers are also shown on the officers' identity discs, which have already been issued to the units on which they are serving.

    3. The personal numbers of newly commissioned officers will also appear in the London Gazette and will be notified to officers on appointment.

    4. Personal numbers are to be quoted in brackets directly after the name of the officer concerned in all official correspondence, documents and returns."

    I am not sure that I fully understand your second paragraph, but hopefully the above will confirm my ever weakening memory hasn't failed completely!

    Jim

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    Hi Jim,

    Paul is correct in that the numbering system published from Sept 39 has gaps that correspond to casualties and retirements that pre date the AMO.

    Taking for example the sequence from the 1937 AFL gradation lists

    Burbridge B F Byron Francis
    Clarke E J T Edward Joseph Taylor
    Darling T A Thomas Adam
    Eddison F L H Frank Leslie Herbert
    Fairbairn D I Derrick Ian

    Darling was killed in Aug 1939 prior to the issue of the AMO

    Taking the names in the sequence given in the AFL issue published in 1937 and adding the number from post Sept 1939 AFL you get:

    39374 Burbridge B F Byron Francis
    39375 Clarke E J T Edward Joseph Taylor
    (39376) Darling T A Thomas Adam
    39377 Eddison F L H Frank Leslie Herbert
    39378 Fairbairn D I Derrick Ian

    The number for Darling can be extrapolated as 39376 but this has never been published.

    Works as a rule back to mid 1930s - just need to exclude the odd AAF/RAFO and RAFVR names from the initial Acting P/O lists in the Gazette to get the RAF list (the AFL list does this for you).

    This suggests that an un-published system was in use that allocated personal numbers to officer records before it was formalised by the AMO.

    Ross
    Last edited by Ross_McNeill; 12th June 2015 at 21:20.
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    This is the sequence from June 1922 AFL with post Sept 39 pubished numbers added

    16003 Collingwood C J Cuthbert John
    16004 D'Aeth N H Narborough Hughes
    16005 David E H M Edward Hugh Markham
    16009 Hare B W T Bertram William Trelawney
    16011 Prance D C Dennis Caldwell
    16012 Spencer G R C Geoffrey Roger Cole
    16013 Weedon C W Colin Winterbotham

    Ross
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    Ross thanks for that do you think if possible to extrapolate a possible range for Sholto number from those of his colleagues who were not of such high rank in WW2

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    Not with certanty - there are too many gaps and the system did not seem to start with the April 1918 formation list.

    This is what I am happy with for the early personal numbers

    00051 Breese C D Charles Dempster
    00855 Preston W G Walter George
    01026 Groves P R C Percy Robert Clifford
    01042 Blackburn H Harold
    01059 Cave-Browne-Cave T R Thomas Reginald
    01071 Fletcher J N John Norman
    01079 Grant-Dalton S Stuart
    01098 Ranken F Francis
    01109 Williamson H A Hugh Alexander
    01110 Wise P K Percival Kinnear
    01111 Wynn A H W E Alfred Hearst Wynn Elias
    01112 Allen D L Dermott Lang
    01113 ap Ellis A Augustine
    01114 Archer J O John Oliver
    01122 Breese G F George Frederick
    01124 Brown V S Vernon Sydney
    01126 Bullen T F Thomas Francis
    01127 Burchall P R Percival Russell
    01129 Butler A J Albert James
    01133 Cooke G G H Gilbert George Herbert
    01136 Corballis E R L Edward Roux Littledale
    01138 Crosbie D S K Dudley Stuart Kays
    01140 Currie A J Alfred James
    01144 De Courcy J A G John Arthur Gerald
    01145 de Roeper B P H Bruno Philip Henry
    01147 Elsdon T W Thomas Wilfrid
    01148 England T H Tom Harry
    01150 Faithfull G F H George Ferdinand Hay
    01155 Gaskell-Blackburn V Vivian
    01163 Hamilton B H N H Benjamin Henry Noel Hans
    01183 Wells J K John Kilner
    01185 Laws F C V Frederick Charles Victor
    01191 Levick A Albert
    01193 Lister T V Thomas Vaughan
    01194 Long S G Samuel Godfrey
    01201 Marix R L G Reginald Lennox George
    01202 Ellington E L Edward Leonard

    Ross
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