Sir William Sholto Douglas RAF service number

[CZ_RAF]

Hi all,

I would like to ask if Sir William Sholto Douglas had a RAF service number?
The reason why I am asking is that I was unable to find it in the LG.

TIA

Pavel

[jimroutledge]

Pavel,

RAF Officers were only allotted Service Numbers in September 1939, and then only to officers below the substantive rank of Group Captain. Consequently, Sholto Douglas never had a number.

Jim

[paulmcmillan]

Jim

Are you sure about this? I recently came across something where I found reference to a officer service number prior to start of WW2

Basically as the numbers were allocated in the year the officer was commissioned or maybe passed out how did they how if to start number 33 35 etc and even earlier

They must have been allocated before hand but prehaps never used ?

Wish I could remember where I found reference to a number it may have been on a post 1920 crash I found on RAF vault

Happy to be proved wrong

Paul

[CZ_RAF]

Jim thank you for explanation.

Pavel

[jimroutledge]

Paul,

AMO A349/1939 dated 2 Sep 1939 - Personal Numbers of Officers of the Royal Air Force.

"1. In order to supply a means for readily identifying officers and to prevent any possibility of confusion of names, it has been decided to allot personal numbers to all officers below the rank of group captain.

2. The personal numbers of officers will be published in the index of the Air Force List against each officer's name. The numbers are also shown on the officers' identity discs, which have already been issued to the units on which they are serving.

3. The personal numbers of newly commissioned officers will also appear in the London Gazette and will be notified to officers on appointment.

4. Personal numbers are to be quoted in brackets directly after the name of the officer concerned in all official correspondence, documents and returns."

I am not sure that I fully understand your second paragraph, but hopefully the above will confirm my ever weakening memory hasn't failed completely!

Jim

[Ross_McNeill]

Hi Jim,

Paul is correct in that the numbering system published from Sept 39 has gaps that correspond to casualties and retirements that pre date the AMO.

Taking for example the sequence from the 1937 AFL gradation lists

Burbridge B F Byron Francis
Clarke E J T Edward Joseph Taylor
Darling T A Thomas Adam
Eddison F L H Frank Leslie Herbert
Fairbairn D I Derrick Ian

Darling was killed in Aug 1939 prior to the issue of the AMO

Taking the names in the sequence given in the AFL issue published in 1937 and adding the number from post Sept 1939 AFL you get:

39374 Burbridge B F Byron Francis
39375 Clarke E J T Edward Joseph Taylor
(39376) Darling T A Thomas Adam
39377 Eddison F L H Frank Leslie Herbert
39378 Fairbairn D I Derrick Ian

The number for Darling can be extrapolated as 39376 but this has never been published.

Works as a rule back to mid 1930s - just need to exclude the odd AAF/RAFO and RAFVR names from the initial Acting P/O lists in the Gazette to get the RAF list (the AFL list does this for you).

This suggests that an un-published system was in use that allocated personal numbers to officer records before it was formalised by the AMO.

Ross

[Ross_McNeill]

This is the sequence from June 1922 AFL with post Sept 39 pubished numbers added

16003 Collingwood C J Cuthbert John
16004 D'Aeth N H Narborough Hughes
16005 David E H M Edward Hugh Markham
16009 Hare B W T Bertram William Trelawney
16011 Prance D C Dennis Caldwell
16012 Spencer G R C Geoffrey Roger Cole
16013 Weedon C W Colin Winterbotham

Ross

[paulmcmillan]

Ross thanks for that do you think if possible to extrapolate a possible range for Sholto number from those of his colleagues who were not of such high rank in WW2

[Ross_McNeill]

Not with certanty - there are too many gaps and the system did not seem to start with the April 1918 formation list.

This is what I am happy with for the early personal numbers

00051 Breese C D Charles Dempster
00855 Preston W G Walter George
01026 Groves P R C Percy Robert Clifford
01042 Blackburn H Harold
01059 Cave-Browne-Cave T R Thomas Reginald
01071 Fletcher J N John Norman
01079 Grant-Dalton S Stuart
01098 Ranken F Francis
01109 Williamson H A Hugh Alexander
01110 Wise P K Percival Kinnear
01111 Wynn A H W E Alfred Hearst Wynn Elias
01112 Allen D L Dermott Lang
01113 ap Ellis A Augustine
01114 Archer J O John Oliver
01122 Breese G F George Frederick
01124 Brown V S Vernon Sydney
01126 Bullen T F Thomas Francis
01127 Burchall P R Percival Russell
01129 Butler A J Albert James
01133 Cooke G G H Gilbert George Herbert
01136 Corballis E R L Edward Roux Littledale
01138 Crosbie D S K Dudley Stuart Kays
01140 Currie A J Alfred James
01144 De Courcy J A G John Arthur Gerald
01145 de Roeper B P H Bruno Philip Henry
01147 Elsdon T W Thomas Wilfrid
01148 England T H Tom Harry
01150 Faithfull G F H George Ferdinand Hay
01155 Gaskell-Blackburn V Vivian
01163 Hamilton B H N H Benjamin Henry Noel Hans
01183 Wells J K John Kilner
01185 Laws F C V Frederick Charles Victor
01191 Levick A Albert
01193 Lister T V Thomas Vaughan
01194 Long S G Samuel Godfrey
01201 Marix R L G Reginald Lennox George
01202 Ellington E L Edward Leonard

Ross