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Thread: UK Crash Accident Investigations - How much detail, photographs etc.

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    Default UK Crash Accident Investigations - How much detail, photographs etc.

    Given that there were a lot of accidents either from operational squadrons or from the many training units in the UK during the war; does anybody know the level of investigation that took place to ascertain the cause. For example were photos taken of the crash site, wreckage etc. I know that survivors were questioned but in the reports I have seen as part of a Board of Inquiry none of them seem to contain any photographic evidence. Has this been lost over time or was it just not something that was done, due to the cost or the time.

    Thanks

    Daz

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    The short answer is:

    Crash Investigator from No.43 Group visited and inspected all crashes to classify damage and repair/disposal method. Written report - no photos.

    If needed a Court of Inquiry (not Board) was formed and invesitgated. Verbal reports, written statements, sketch and logs submitted - no photos.

    If required an AIB investigation carried out. Written report of various detail - on rare occassions photos taken of wreckage and detail of failure points.

    A few AIB reports survive in AVIA 5 and within those any photos are included.

    Ross
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    Ross

    Thank you

    Daz

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    I do not know, who, on what orders, and on what level, but I have seen a number of official photos showing damage, both combat and non combat, to Polish AF aircraft. I would expect it to be a standard RAF procedure.
    Franek

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    Hi All
    For what Its worth I have six official photos of my brothers crash, 3 photos of his funeral M O D. R A F, also copy of the evidence of the rear gunner from the court of enquiry, I am lead to believe that because two of the crew were Australians all information relating to this crash had to be sent to Australia. The crash happened at
    Rawlcliffe nr Goole 17 6 44 Halifax LV825G,perhaps someone knows more about this
    Harold Dummer

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    Quote Originally Posted by HALIFAX View Post
    Hi All
    For what Its worth I have six official photos of my brothers crash, 3 photos of his funeral M O D. R A F, also copy of the evidence of the rear gunner from the court of enquiry, I am lead to believe that because two of the crew were Australians all information relating to this crash had to be sent to Australia. The crash happened at
    Rawlcliffe nr Goole 17 6 44 Halifax LV825G,perhaps someone knows more about this
    Harold Dummer
    Regarding Files held in other Countries and what is upon Australian Files, it is my belief, that it will depend upon what the Australians requested and were sent at the time.

    Funeral photographs were often sent to the families at time, we have eight 1940 funeral photos for the bomber crew, despite my Grandmother being told that my Grandfather was missing.

    Much of my reply seems to have disappeared, when posting ...
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 20th May 2016 at 11:09.

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    Reference to A.33 dated 17:6:44 (Serial No.28/44)

    10 Squadron; Group No. 4; Bomber Command
    Date 17:6:44
    Time 00 50 hours

    i) Operational or Non Operational: Operational
    ii) Day or Night Flying: Night
    iii) Purpose Operations

    Halifax LV825 Mk III
    Name of airfield N/A
    Place Pasture Farm, Rawcliffe.
    County Yorkshire

    Duration of the Flight 30 mins.

    Description of Accident as summary or pilot's report. In event of engine failure information should be given as to the behaviour of the engine ...
    "Not available - Pilot Killed"

    Report of Appropriate Specialist Officers ...
    "Starboard inner engine presumed to have caught fire"
    "Under investigation by A 1 B"

    Remarks by Base Engineer
    "No remarks."

    "Accident under investigation" W/Cdr Commanding 10 Squadron 18:6:44

    Remarks by Base Commander "Forwarded - No remarks." 25.6.44

    I believe A 1 B, should say A.I.B., being the Air Ministry Accidents Branch / Accident Investigation Branch.

    The RAF Engineer was making "No remarks" and the crash was being passed to the Air Ministry Accidents Branch (A.I.B.) / Chief Inspector of Accidents / 'C.I. (Accidents)'

    Regards Mark
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 20th May 2016 at 18:06.

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    C of I "The primary cause of the accident (i.e. the cause of the fire) is obscure. The secondary cause of the accident is fire in the air in the region of the S.O. engine with possible attendant fracture of the pressure pipeline from the feathering motor which prevented the S.O. propellor being feather." ...

    The C of I findings and extracts of the other Form (below) confirm the aircraft is on fire in the air and the RAF suspect an engine fire, but the accident was also referred to the A.I.B., to investigate and determine the exact cause of the fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hood View Post
    Reference to A.33 dated 17:6:44 (Serial No.28/44)

    10 Squadron; Group No. 4; Bomber Command
    Date 17:6:44
    Time 00 50 hours

    i) Operational or Non Operational: Operational
    ii) Day or Night Flying: Night
    iii) Purpose Operations

    Halifax LV825 Mk III
    Name of airfield N/A
    Place Pasture Farm, Rawcliffe.
    County Yorkshire

    Duration of the Flight 30 mins.

    Description of Accident as summary or pilot's report. In event of engine failure information should be given as to the behaviour of the engine ...
    "Not available - Pilot Killed"

    Report of Appropriate Specialist Officers ...
    "Starboard inner engine presumed to have caught fire"
    "Under investigation by A 1 B"

    Remarks by Base Engineer
    "No remarks."

    "Accident under investigation" W/Cdr Commanding 10 Squadron 18:6:44

    Remarks by Base Commander "Forwarded - No remarks." 25.6.44

    I believe A 1 B, should say A.I.B., being the Air Ministry Accidents Branch / Accident Investigation Branch.

    The RAF Engineer was making "No remarks" and the crash was being passed to the Air Ministry Accidents Branch (A.I.B.) / Chief Inspector of Accidents / 'C.I. (Accidents)'

    Regards Mark
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 20th May 2016 at 20:57.

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    I have tried unsuccessfully to find information about “Fire in Air” aircraft fires in August 1940. However, there is little or no information apart from the A.M. 1180, in relation to a particular crash.

    According to this AVIA 15/2695 file opened in October 1943, it states that more effort was to be made, regarding aircraft fire investigation and that another Technical Officer would be appointed and placed on attachment to the A.I.B.

    The secrecy placed on accidents and fires was still preventing the sharing of information with manufacturers according to the file.

    However, another file and A.M. manual indicates that a request for – fire extinguishing pipework, was issued in relation to Merlin engines about April 1940 with updated fire extinguishing pipework later in 1940 and there was some realisation at the AAEE in February 1940, when the coolant system failed on a Merlin X engine No.120673 and it caught fire in the air and also a similar failure on Merlin X Engine No.6333.

    Here is a table on a Loose Minute to the D.P.A.
    “Fires – by Aircraft Type January – June, 1944.”
    “Attached is a list of fires per aircraft type together with fatalities. The category “E” aircraft are also given”



    Last edited by Mark Hood; 21st May 2016 at 08:26.

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    HI Mark
    I cannot thank you enough for all of the Information and copy documents you have sent to me,
    these certainly throw a different light on things once again Many Thanks
    Harold Dummer

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