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Thread: Form 1180 Signal/765C/AIB/CofI boxes use 1939 to 1941

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    Default Form 1180 Signal/765C/AIB/CofI boxes use 1939 to 1941

    Form 1180 Signal/765C/AIB/CofI boxes

    I have been looking at the format and content of the above boxes on the AM Form 1180 Accident Cards during the period Jan 1939 to Dec 1940.

    As with all things in RAF Admin there is evident procedure (with occassional deviation).

    Signal Box
    This contains the Originator's Number of the signal in abbreviated format. Early F1180s of the period had the full format but most later cards omit the normal prefix S.

    The Originator's Number comprised of one or two letters followed by three or four numbers.

    Only Air Ministry and Records Office used the four number Originator sequence.

    The letters employed designated the originating branch.

    For the period Jan 1939 to 15/16th Nov 1940 all signals that started creation of F1180s originated from Signals at the Air Ministry.

    They were either General eg S1234 or from AM repeated signals from overseas Air Formations eg SX1234.
    As volume of signals grew the common prefix S was omitted leaving the 1234 or X1234 reference to be recorded.

    The numeric part of the Originator's Number cycled from 1000 to 9999 then repeated from 1000 to 9999.

    No date specific sequence was used with several accidents that happened a day or so previously appearing in the general sequence for a given day.

    All that can be gleaned from the Signal box during this period is the sequence that Accidents were reported to Records Glos from the Air Ministry as IMMEDIATE priority,

    From 15th/16th November 1940 the reporting system was changed to reduce the work load of the Air Ministry actioning all Aircraft Accident reports to Records Glos.

    The appearance of three figure Originator's Number with a larger range of Branch prefix denotes that formations were now repeating signals to AM direct to Records Glos for action.

    Examples of these are A for Air, General and AT for Air, Training (again the common A could be omitted leading to historian confusion between T for Training or T for Engineer).

    No clue has been left on the F1180 as to the Originator unit (other than if AM or not) but if we had access to the RAF Central Registry of the time the original signal could easily be found from the details recorded.

    765c Box
    Pre war 764 and early war 765C were required to be submitted monthly leading to a single number being recorded in this box. This relates to the xth report in the list from y unit submitted the month following the accident date.

    By the end of 1939 Units engaged on active operations were required to submit 765c on a daily basis but with the proviso that completeness of information was more important that rapidity of 765c submission.

    A period of 4 days was suggested as typical of the timescale to collate and record adequate detail but in unusual cases a greater period would be allowed.

    The 765c box records the submission of these as a additional "improper fraction" to the list sequence eg D 22/7 for daily, submitted 22nd July.

    AIB Box
    It seems that this infrequently used box caused confusion.

    Most of the time it was left blank, sometimes No was entered and occassionaly YES.

    The very infrequent entries of the AIB file number prefixed W may allow the AIB file flimsy to be found surviving in AVIA 5 at The National Archives. However not all AIB files have been transfered to this public location.

    CofI Box
    During the period Jan 1939 to 31st Dec 1941 this box served to record several remote files.

    The first and most common use was to give the General File Reference used by the Records Branch.

    The prefix denoted if the accident was Fatal (P) or non fatal (A) followed by a number issued on creation from a central sequential index. The final part of the reference was the year of creation eg /40 for 1940.

    The General File Reference was not the Form 412 - Court of Inquiry reference but the wrapper that would hold all the contents relating to the accident.

    A Court of Inquiry document was indicated as being included in the General File Reference by use of YES or No under the CofI heading and a tick symbol with feather tails.

    This symbol was used as a shorthand method of indicating the level of additional documents included eg CO's Report, Investigation Ordered, C of I Ordered.

    With the introduction of edge peroration cards on 31st Dec 1941 this box was changed to formally record all the additional pieces with check boxes for C of I, PA, FI, AIB and MS (minute sheet) along with Report Number box in addition to a new FILE box for the General File Reference.
    Last edited by Ross_McNeill; 28th May 2016 at 10:27.
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    Hello Ross and All

    I am not sure about 1940 AM1180 marked “MS”, simply meant a “(minute sheet)”?

    My Grandfather’s fatal Whitley crash and some other accidents in 1940 are marked MS, hence my interest.

    AIB, but "NO" in the AIB No. box
    Regarding AIB, Whitley T4277 on 7 Dec 1940 says “NO” for AIB, but looking at the reverse of the Accident Card it is clear the “(Min. C.I. Acc’ds, 31/12/40)” and a “Further minute 13/1/41” and a “Further minute & next[?] action 8/2/41” were issued, so there was Chief Inspector Accidents (AIB) involvement, despite the Accident Card, saying “A.I.B. No. NO”. This T4277 Accident Card has no MS marking.

    Rep. No MS. Misc 27
    Whitley EB389 on 3 January 1943, (given “F8B” being Miscellaneous), has AIB ticked and indicates that MS was some kind of report, “Rep. No MS. Misc 27”

    This Miscellaneous Report No.27 is an AIB report which deals with photoflashes in eight aircraft accidents in the Appendix, with a reference to P5092 in AIB Report W-1249 of 12 June 1942, which seems to have triggered this AIB Miscellaneous report.




    MS (Incomplete) 1940
    Whitley T4232 on 13 November 1940, (given F9 Obscure or undetermined) Adverse Weather, with a suggestion of Icing.
    Obscure (F9) according to RAF K.R. 743 would automatically trigger an A.I.B. investigation.



    I am most interested Ross, or anyone else, whether:-

    i) MS refers to a Report (as in the EB389, 1943 example above), which came under an AIB Miscellaneous investigation
    ii) MS simply meant the investigation was not completed, as in the 1940 example given

    Mark
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 3rd June 2016 at 12:33.

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    Ok

    There are several annotations that appear surrounding the C of I Box in the period up to Dec 1941. Some are associated with C of I Box even though they appear in the AIB Box - just a matter of the scribe using available space when the C of I Box is full with a file number. This situation was cleared up with the normal inclusions given a dedicated check box from Dec 1940

    Misc is different to MS. Misc is either written in full as Misc 27 for EB389 or more usually as M4, M8 etc and relates to a seperate report and appears a such in cards throughout 1940 to 1943.

    Ms, M/S or M.S. text by itself prior to 31 Dec 1940 was not given any numeric follower.

    In some cards circa May 1940 24H is crossed out and MS added above so it most probably relates to where the estimated time for return to airframe serviceability has changed and this could be the case for T4232 when the damage was assessed following the forced landing and what was thought repairable was left incomplete when assessed as W in the cold light of day.

    Rarely is MS seen with fatal accidents but as with T4232 there are exceptions.

    An example of MS with no numeric annotation is Spitfire P7561 who overshot the end of the runway with very little forward speed due to inefficient brakes then tipped onto nose 14th Nov 1940.
    C of I has No, AIB No. has Not ref, Ms is added above Branch File Reference A135514/40,

    So in this case no AIB Report and no Investigation by either Court of Inquiry or AIB
    so your i) no for MS but yes for Misc 7 and ii) no

    Ross
    Last edited by Ross_McNeill; 4th June 2016 at 20:24.
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    AIB, but "NO" in the AIB No. box
    Regarding AIB, Whitley T4277 on 7 Dec 1940 says “NO” for AIB, but looking at the reverse of the Accident Card it is clear the “(Min. C.I. Acc’ds, 31/12/40)” and a “Further minute 13/1/41” and a “Further minute & next[?] action 8/2/41” were issued, so there was Chief Inspector Accidents (AIB) involvement, despite the Accident Card, saying “A.I.B. No. NO”. This T4277 Accident Card has no MS marking.

    Not sure of your point for stressing the “A.I.B. No. NO”. as the last line of Nature of Accident on front of this card reads:
    "A.I.B. did not invest, but in view of rep. has sent an Inspector to (last word unreadable - Ross)"

    The reverse of the card continues to as you have transcribed.

    So it is clear that the original intent was not to have an AIB investigation but a few inches lower the card notes that subsequently an AIB investigation was carried and the reverse of the card has a summary of AIB findings and file notes.

    Not really proof of an Air Ministry cover up and intent to mislead future researchers by making false records is it?

    Regarding KR&ACCI 743
    You are incorrect in the statement
    "according to RAF K.R. 743 would automatically trigger an A.I.B. investigation"

    The clause actually says that it will
    "be reported to the Air Ministry for the information of the Accidents Investigation Branch.."

    "4 On receipt of every report of a flying accident, whether under this para. or para. 2310, the Accidents Investiagation Branch will decide whether a special investigation, in addition to any service court of inquiry, is required and will notify the unit accordinly, confirming any such verbal or telephonic notification in writing."

    So no automatic investigation only a discressionary decision on the part of AIB.

    Ross
    Last edited by Ross_McNeill; 5th June 2016 at 12:43.
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    Hello Ross

    I accept your points:-
    a) that if MS on the Accident Card meant AIB Miscellaneous, generally there would usually be an M and number reference in the AIB box (although not always I have discovered in relation to some listed on the 1940 Misc No. M.8 report) and
    b) that K.R. and A.C.I. 743 in relation to RAF Obscure Accidents and the types listed, confirms that they would "be reported to the Air Ministry for the information of the Accidents Investigation Branch", but what the AIB did, was a matter for the AIB.

    MS, Ms or M/S on AM 1180 Flying Accident Card
    However, regarding the MS annotation on the AM1180, it is my belief this is something to do with a special investigation / Ad-hoc report.

    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...rmation-please

    Regards Mark
    Last edited by Mark Hood; 12th June 2016 at 20:34.

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