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Thread: Missing 29/11/1940

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    Default Missing 29/11/1940

    Hello to all

    I am looking for information on two airmen missing the 29 November 1940
    Sgt Illingworth Thomas Charles 564228 & Sgt Lilley Anthony St John 742971
    Both on runnymede memorial

    Many thanks in advance
    Regards
    Phil

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    Phil,

    Both airmen are listed as being with 1 (C) O.T.U. in the R.A.F. Deaths Overseas list, so hopefully Ross will be able to supply details.

    There is one 1 (C) OTU loss for that date on the ASN, Hudson P5142, but few details:

    https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=22484

    Regards

    Simon

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    Phil,
    Sgt Illingworth Thomas Charles 564228 Enlisted as an Aircraft Apprentice some time after Jan 1926.
    Sgt Lilley Anthony St John 742971 Enlisted RAFVR Pilots sometime after Jan 1937 (possibly Feb 1939?). Born 7 Feb 1921 Blantyre Nyasaland.
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Phil,

    Malcolm’s excellent RAFWEB has both of them in Hudson I P5142, of No 1(C)OTU, ‘diving into the sea’ shortly after take-off from Silloth. So it must have been observed (by somebody) to have ‘dived’? This means it was not far from land? It also means that one is looking for either a catastrophic airframe failure, or the non-removal of one, or more, gust locks? If it had simply ‘flown’ into the sea, one would then be looking at visibility problems (available if needed) and/or altimeter/sub-scale setting problems.

    Interesting that although the impact seems to have been observed, the airframe (and bodies) were not recovered. I have worked in the Solway Firth area. It’s not all that deep, but the bottom is notoriously ‘difficult’ sand, and could – I suppose – ‘swallow’ a Hudson in one tidal cycle?

    All supposition, and circumstantial evidence! Perhaps Ross may have the answer?

    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Malcolm is correct.

    I have no inclination to provide corrected information for Nepa (Pavel) to correct his misleading information posted to ASN claimed to be from the No.1 (C)OTU ORB.

    This primary document names the correct 4 man crew and makes no mention of the Polish AC1 Mechanic that ASN claims to have been pilot in command .

    All in all another example of the unfounded speculation and garbage listed on the net masquerading as researched fact.

    The Court of Inquiry who took evidence from the detailed account eyewitnesses at the time found that there was insufficient evidence to determine the cause of the crash which killed the crew and pilot who had over 600 hours solo on type - a type that had been in service for only a few years.

    Ross
    Last edited by Ross_McNeill; 10th August 2016 at 15:48.
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    Copyright Ross McNeill 2015/2018 - All rights reserved.

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    All,

    So, by a process of elimination from CWGC, the only other 2 casualties on 29 Nov 40, and on Runnymede, and who do not have a Unit designation are:-
    643484 AC1 William Alfred Davies who Enlisted from Civilian sometime after Mar 1938.
    552826 Sgt Samuel Butler who Enlisted as a Boy Entrant sometime after Oct 1925.

    Are these the other two casualties? No mention of any Polish PiC.

    Seems a very hard way to extract info that is already in someone's possession - or am I missing something?

    HTH

    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Peter

    Both Davies (Alfred William, btw) and Butler are listed as being with 1 (C) O.T.U. in the R.A.F. Deaths Overseas list.

    Regards

    Simon

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    KEDZIERSKI Zygmunt is listed as Died in 4th Qtr 1940 of BMD Registered W.Cheshire aged 29

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    Many thanks to all of you , very helpfull

    However , following the information found on ASN the Sgt Kedzierski Zygmunt was aboard but on Aircrew remembered he seems that he was killed in bombing raid !?

    Anyway many thanks again
    Rgards
    Phil

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    Phil,

    If http://listakrzystka.pl/en/ is to be believed (and it is not without fault!) then your Polish man is likely to have been:-

    784589 AC1 Zygmunt Kedzierski, Mechanic
    Born 15 Mar 1911
    Died 29 Dec 1940, Barrow, Cheshire, UK.

    And likely not a Pilot, nor in Command.

    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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