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Thread: "Time" in documents

  1. #1
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    Default "Time" in documents

    Could anyone throw some light on the "Time" shown in documents.

    I have 428 Sqdn ORB's and the raid report show that LK635 NA-H took off at 18.28 from Middleton St George heading for Hanover.

    A German report relating to the shooting down of a Bomber states 21.36 over the frisian Islands on the outward journey.

    According to the MOD raid report the following was shown:

    5/10ths cloud

    LK635 was in the 3rd wave

    Wind speed from bases to Dutch coast @ 20,000ft was 330*/40-45 mph.

    So, at what time would LK635 be expected to reach the Dutch coast?

    Aircraft from the squadron were according to the ORB bombing the target between 21.34 and 21.55. One is shown to be bombing primary target at 20.43, this could be a mistake as or it could prove a point I am trying to establish.

    There is almost an hour difference so could this also mean that one of their aircraft could be an hour late?

    My main dilemma is:

    Were the ORB records timings being wrote as British time and the German report wrote 1 hour ahead? or was the time in England the same time in Holland?

    Senario: Navigator

    A/c A leaves base at 18.30 and flies to Dutch coast reaching it at 20.00. A/c spotted by Germans at 20.00 or 21.00 according to THEIR watches?

    Many thanks

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    I doubt that it was a straight line from the Base to the Dutch Coast, many raids left the UK over a certain coastal point. Also you would need to know the time the aircraft "set course" for the target, which may well be different from the take off time. If anyone is able to provide the route for the raid, the time at the Dutch coast is relatively easy to work out. Regards, Terry

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    Thanks Terry

    from the raid report outward journey

    East Coast 53* 50'N. 04*00'E - 52*40'N. 09*20'E - Target

    Would this help?

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    The answer is actually simple -

    on 22 September 1943, Britain was operating under B.S.T. (GMT+1 hour), Germany, including occupied territories, was operating under M.E.S.Z. (GMT+2 hours). Thus, "21.36" hours in the German report equates to 20.36 hours in British time.

    Cheers

    Rod

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    Many thanks RodM for your reply.

    It would now remain that I need to work out how long it either should or would have take a fully laden Halifax bomber to reach the Dutch coast. I will look at other losses and try and see where I get with that.

    Any help would be very much appreciated.

    regards

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    Big Tyke, I'll check and get back to you. Regards, Terry

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    Hello Big Tyke,
    Glad you have more data to work with but I suggest you still need to get the rest of the instructions for the mission (see comments from Terry in post #2) in order to get the correct answer. There may have been more than one route assigned to different aircraft within the mission.
    Bruce
    http://www.filephotoservice.co.uk/
    RESEARCH AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES & OTHER UK INSTITUTIONS

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    Thanks Terry your help would be very much appreciated

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    Hello Bruce

    I made a map many years ago with the route from Middleton St George which shows that they flew south to around Easingwold then to a point off Scarborough. Not sure where I got this information from without checking my files. The route I showed in post #3 came from AIR14 documents but I must have other plotting points for me to have made the map.

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    Big Tyke, I have run the sums. I used the route you suggested, which is Middleton St George, Easingwold etc. For the point beyond Scarborough, I worked on the theory that the aircraft had overflown Scarborough to an indeterminate point before turning east. I have found with other routes that the navigation plan uses a Lat/Long intersect that suits the purpose. For this problem I used 5420'N 0000' and then the further coordinates you gave me. Although I had a cruise speed of 190mph, I had no idea of the speed in the climb so I used 130mph, which, given it was full load, may have been generous. Nevertheless. You suggested that the aircraft had been shot down over the Frisian Islands on the outward journey; presumably you meant outward from the UK. The course you gave me took the aircraft over the island of Ameland in the Frisian Group, so I used that island as the point of shoot down. Using your time of take off of 1828 and the climb speed of 130mph until reaching 5420'N 0000', and then 190mph for the remainder of the flight, I have the aircraft overhead Ameland at 2026. This, with a factor, and given the German/British time difference of one hour knits up quite nicely. Regards, Terry

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