Results 1 to 6 of 6

Thread: Newbie to the Forum with Pathfinder Badge-Wing Question(s). Thanks in advance

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    4
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Newbie to the Forum with Pathfinder Badge-Wing Question(s). Thanks in advance

    Greetings,

    This is my first post to the Forum and I thank those in advance that may respond to my question(s). I guess the first question would be in relation as to what the correct name is for the Pathfinder emblem. I have seen it as cap badges, sleeve badges, and wings. I have also read that there are several versions of the attachment devices. I have seen pin ("c clasp), screw posts, etc. Does this in some way date them or confirm originality?
    I ask these questions as I have acquired two (screw posted backed) and an associated patch (Black Half moon with CANADA at top and over what looks like a Pathfinder eagle); that I haven't properly identified. In reference to the wings they are approximately 55mm in length and came together as found. I suspect they are WW2 era as that is the King's crown. Both wings are marked on their reverse. One is noted as "C LAMOND MTL" and the other is "BREADNER CO OTTAWA"

    Best regards,

    Mark

    PS: Can you post pictures to the Forum? I didn't see a way to do such.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    4
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    4
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    4
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    No one has any input?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,764
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

    Default

    Mark

    I am not a badge expert, but I will kick off the discussion and see if we can get an answer for you:

    Firstly, I am guessing the "sew on" badge is a shoulder badge, which is embroidered with the RAF Eagle, not the Pathfinder Eagle as you suggest.

    Secondly, I think that the same logic applies to the metal badges, which again, I believe, represent the RAF Eagle (for example, I believe a similar badge was worn by RAF Officers on forage caps) and therefore they are not necessarily a Pathfinder Badge

    I am guessing that as the badges were produced by Canadian manufacturers, they were made for Canadian airmen uniforms, but again, this is just me trying to apply some logic.

    Did you purchase them as "Pathfinder Badges"?

    Regards

    Pete
    Main areas of research:

    - CA Butler and the loss of Lancaster ME334 (http://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/ )
    - Aircrew Training (Basic / Trade / Operational / Continuation / Conversion)
    - The History of No. 35 Squadron (1916 - 1982) (https://35squadron.wordpress.com/)

    [Always looking for copies of original documents / photographs etc relating to these subjects]

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,039
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts

    Default

    The metal eagle badge used as the PFF badge was all but identical to the eagles used as a component of the Officer SD cap badge as well as the cuff badges on very early RAF officer uniforms (and continued in use by the RAAF for many years after WW2). From memory the eagle of the officer version of the Field Service cap badge was also pretty much the same thing. Postwar, the PFF badge was definitely the same badge as used by NCO aircrew (worn in the "valley" of the chevrons as an indication that they were aircrew rather than non-flying NCOs), and were listed in the RAF Vocabulary of Stores (AP 1086, also known as the "Vocab") in the appropriate volume as identical to ONE of the gilt eagles issued to NCO aircrew. As with the eagle cloth badges worn by non-commissioned personnel up till about the (late 1970s?), the NCO aircrew eagle metal badges were manufactured in opposite pairs (left and right) and were always to be affixed to the uniform with the head of the eagle facing to the rear of the wearer. Obviously only one of these could serve duty as the PFF badge, as the direction of the eagle's head was specified in the Order which originally described this badge. However it was the means by which these badges were attached to the uniform that provided the greatest obvious differences between the eagle badges, as already pointed out. I think the PFF Badges were normally fitted with a loop and a hinged pin, whereas fixed "posts" were possibly more common of SD cap badges. Soldering or "sweating" seems to have been the normal way of attaching the pin devices. I will leave all other comment to real experts in the field, but all these metal eagle badges (and there were subtle differences between badges from different manufacturers) so there remained much scope here for the fraudster, and I am certain that some of these cunning and unscrupulous fellows must have amassed considerable sums from the unwary - in fact, unless they can provide irrefutable evidence that the badge for sale is connected with a real person actually entitled to the badge, and even then you could require that this evidence (and not a copy)be passed to you as a guarantee, but there is probably no real method of segregating phonies from the real thing. Even if such evidence IS offered (but NOT included in the sale), a real scoundrel could simply use any genuine paperwork to back up a steady flow of perfectly genuine RAF NCO aircrew eagles (of small worth in themselves) as real PFF badges. So it is quite likely that ALL the badges described above were made by quite a few different manufacturers in their own moulds or dies (which would differ slightly between manufacturers), and fitted with the specified attachment apparatus, then delivered to the RAF to complete their contract. Having made quite a study of RAF badges, metal and textile, I can verify that the RAF might supply potential manufacturer's with a design for a badge, but the production items as delivered could vary quite a bit in detail. Also remember that officers and airman were quite free to purchase (and wear, although some versions were challenged) fancier versions of most badges that were privately produced, and definitely NOT free issue, and although some of these may have featured the maker's name, most did not. The last badge in your picture gallery is, as Pete states, merely an airman's shoulder badge with national identification. This rather unusual (actually it is a very strange looking bird!) was also widely used by RNZAF airmen (who carried out much of their training in Canada), - they must have made hundreds of thousands of this pattern - very ugly, but obviously accepted by the authorities as it was probably this bird or nothing! My late uncle in the RNZAF recognized three species of the "airman's eagle", calling them eagles (the most realistic), hawks (so-so) and chicken hawks (probably that ugly Canadian pattern).
    David D
    Last edited by David Duxbury; 4th October 2016 at 22:15.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •