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Thread: Operation Gisela, Mar 1945 - Intruder destruction locations

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    Default Operation Gisela, Mar 1945 - Intruder destruction locations

    Hi all

    A bit outside my area of knowledge this (plenty of things are!) so I wonder if anyone can please help.

    I've found reference in two Squadron ORB's (68 Sqn and 125 Sqn) to the destruction of three "Ju 188"s heading for home after taking part in Operation Gisela, the mass Intruder raid on returning RAF bombers on 3-4/3/1945, but the claims are simply recorded with Fix co-ordinates as Positions "G.8299", "G.8868" and "H.8156".

    These were somewhere out over the North Sea, but can anyone please give me some pointers for finding whereabouts they might have been? Just interested to see.

    I've tried Google and the forum search function but can't find anything to get me started.

    Many thanks for any assistance

    Ian

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    Hi Ian,

    G.8299 roughly translates to a geographical position of 53.27396° N, 1.53181° E, which means the 68 Squadron claim at 02.20 hrs was situated some 25-26 miles NNE of Cromer.

    G.8868 roughly translates to a geographical position of 52.99362° N, 1.60352° E, which means the 68 Squadron claim at 01.32 hrs was situated some 11 miles NE of Mundesley.

    H.8156 roughly translates to a geographical position of 52.84539° N, 2.97603° E, which means the 125 Squadron claim at 02.15 hrs was situated some 66 miles due east of North Walsham.

    Cheers

    Rod

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    Hi Rod

    Many thanks for that. I thought you, if anyone, might well be aware of these claims and would quite likely have the answer! : )

    May I ask where you get those Fix co-ordinates from? I'd be interested to learn.

    And the claim times? I don't think they're given in the Sqn ORB's.

    Cheers

    Ian

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    Hi Ian, my pleasure...

    I would like to say that I slaved over the GSGS maps and plotted the co-ordinates, but luckily there is an easier (automated) method thanks to Thierry Arsicaud's website:

    http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-welcome.php

    In the case of these claims, the positions would have been radar/radio plotted, but I don't know the accuracy of this plotting. Four-figure grid references (from memory) are not accurate to less than 1,000 yards square around an actual fixed point.

    The specific details of the claims are from the individual combats reports:

    4 March 1945
    68 Squadron
    Mosquito XXX. A.I. Mark 10, Callsign Ferro 17
    01.32 hours
    G.8868 (position fixed by G.C.I. control)
    One Ju.188 destroyed
    Pilot: F/Lt. Wills
    Navigator: F/O Goodwin
    Control: Hopton

    4 March 1945
    68 Squadron
    Mosquito XXX. A.I. Mark 10, Callsign Ferro 37
    02.20 hours
    G.8299 (position fixed by G.C.I. control)
    One Ju.188 Destroyed
    Pilot: F/Lt Miles
    Navigator: F/O Hobdey
    Control: G.C.I. Orby

    3/4 March 1945
    125 (Newfoundland) Squadron
    Mosquito XXX Nk. X A.I., Callsign Goodwill 18
    02.15 hours
    H.8156
    1 x JU.188 Destroyed
    Pilot: W/O D.P. Griffiths
    Nav/Radio: F/Sgt M.F. Lemarchant
    Control: Happisburgh?




    Cheers

    Rod
    Last edited by RodM; 22nd October 2016 at 22:51. Reason: added combat report info

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    Hi Rod, and many thanks for that further detail although I'm most disappointed that you didn't "slave over the GSGS maps to plot the co-ordinates" for me but cheated by using Thierry Arsicaud's website! : ) (Just kidding of course.)
    - I must take a look at that and see how it works.

    [Update: Have looked. What an amazing site! Have bookmarked it].

    Ah, the combat reports!! Hadn't yet got round to thinking of looking those up. Maybe a trip across to TNA will be called for sometime.


    I thought it was interesting that all 3 Intruders were specifically identified and recorded as Ju 188's when as far as I know only '88s took part in Gisela. One of the ORB entries says the Mosquito crew specifically i/d'd it as a 188 by its tapered wings. Mind you, at night and from behind it would've been hard enough to identify the a/c properly - as evidenced in the Gisela reports and in those other combat reports I looked up for you where aircrews not-infrequently 'saw' Me 210's, 410's and even (one report that I recall seeing) a 'flying wing'!

    Interesting too to speculate whether one of these 3 Intruders just might have been the one that shot down the 214 Sqn Fortress just after midnight (not Doring, as we've concluded). Maybe none of these was that Intruder (maybe the time was too late for that: haven't yet looked to see what a Ju 88's endurance over England might have been) but even if it was feasible endurance-wise, we'll never know and there are plenty of other missing a/c as candidates for that one. Still, it makes for an interesting piece of unsolvable speculation even if it gets us nowhere.

    Thanks as ever for the benefit of your knowledge and research.

    Ian
    Last edited by ianh; 23rd October 2016 at 02:20. Reason: Having looked at the mapping website referred to by Rod

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    Hi Ian,

    I suspect that the three Mosquito claims can be 'matched' against the three Ju88s and crews that are still truly remain lost without trace:

    Ju88G-6 620588 (4R+JL) of I./NJG2, piloted by Fhr. Kurt Vogel
    Ju88G-6 621510 (D5+CX) of IV./NJG3, piloted by Ofw. Wilhelm John
    Ju88G-6 621293 of IV./NJG3, piloted by Uffz. Walter Lohse

    I think that with regard to the 214 Squadron Fortress, it is just too hard to know if it was shot down by one of the crews that did not survive the operation. So many other crews along with operational records were lost between March and May 1945 that, barring some major relevation, the truth may never to established.

    Cheers

    Rod

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    Hi Ian
    I have a copy of melbourne ten by Brian Rapier the last chapter 12 is all about Gisela and iscalled Intruders and oil tanks it gives a long list of airfields to where aircraft were diverted to after being attacked when trying to land at there own base, youshould be able to obtain this book at your local library, hope this is of help
    Harold Dummer.

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    Hi Harold, and thanks for the pointer.

    I don't have that book in my collection, but it sounds like I might need to get hold of a copy as you suggest.

    Thanks again for the info.

    Ian

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    Hello ,

    Here some info :

    03-03-45
    Wnr 621293
    Ju88G-6
    10 NJG3
    Lohse Walter Uffz. Pilot +
    Horsch Hermann Uffz. funker +
    Neumann Fred Ogefr. mia 09/02/1924 Berlin

    03-03-45
    Wnr 620018
    Ju88G-6
    12 NJG3 J
    John Wilhelm Ofw. Pilot +
    Dunst Ludwig Fw. Funker + 13/07/1913 Augsburg
    Gerhard Alfred Ogefr. 12/10/1924 Saarland
    Krause Willi Ogefr. Bordwart mia 27/07/1924 Krummhörn-Hamwehrum

    03-03-45
    Wnr 620588
    4R+JL
    Ju88G-6
    3 NJG2
    Vogel Kurt Fw. Pilot mia
    Fritsch Josef Fw. funker mia 29/11/1919 Weiden
    Hellmich Hans Uffz. Funker mia 07/01/1923 Grenzach/Baden
    Engelhardt Albert funker mia


    Regards
    Alain12

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    Hi Alain

    Many thanks for those.

    I am aware that the NJ lost quite a few Ju 88's that night, and do have both of Michael Balss's books listing NJ a/c and personnel losses. I will include all of them in my notes on Gisela (albeit probably less comprehensive that Rod's information collection, but it still gives one a certain sense of achievement to compile research information!). Where I can I'm plotting a timeline of events and Gisela loss locations to see if any patterns appear or any tie-ups become apparent.

    Thank you again, though, for taking the time to provide this detail.

    Regards

    Ian

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