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Thread: Whirlwind Ops

  1. #21
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    Default Alec Ivan DOIG

    hello,

    In his PoW questionnaire, he wrote his first names as Alec Ivan.

    Service Number 565057. Final rank Warrant Officer when liberated from PoW camp.

    Joss

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    Default John Sample 137 Sqdn

    Re 137 Squadron: Has anyone got any information on the crash that killed it's C/O, John Sample, October 28, 1941? Also looking for his a/c number and letter.

    Best Wishes.
    Robert.

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    Default

    Hi Joss,

    Don't mean to be picky but Alec is a short version of Alexander.

    Alex

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    Default second name and service number

    hello Alexander

    My message also contained his second name and his service number, in case it could help somebody else (and myself in return). Place of capture was near Cambrai (not Douai), but Douai was a town that he crossed during his initial escape from the crash site. This ease of move strongly annoyed the Germans here in France, who wrote to the "Préfet" to express their views about that.

    Régis, please, can you confirm the downing of DOIG in Belgium ? My reports mention a single-seater, with no pilot, fuselage broken behing the cockpit section. Crash-landing happened in early afternoon of 23rd January 1943.

    Joss

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    Default

    Hugh, I have copies of 137 ORB for Feb/Mar 1942. Only problem is, there is no way of telling the nationality of the pilots, also no initials for first names, just rank and surnames.
    Feb 42. S/Ldr Coghlan. F/Lt Woodward Sgt McPhail.
    S/Ldr Hugh Coghlan DFC (GB)

    F/Lt Robert Sinckler Woodward DFC (GB), later Sqn/Ldr and C/O of 263 from February 1942 until December 1942

    Sgt, later W/O Donald Burton McPhail RCAF and joined 263 in October 1942. Woodward and McPhail were lost on the same date.

    Coghlan was god father to Woodwards daughter, who was born after his loss.
    Last edited by en830; 4th December 2007 at 12:01.
    [COLOR="Red"]May Contain Nuts[/COLOR]

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    Default W/O Doig

    Hi Joss,

    My information dates from 1991. I obtained a photograph of a Whirlwind (unfortunately a front one) being supposed to show an aircraft crashed at Roesbrugge-Haringe on 23/1/1943.
    Is there something interesting in his POW questionnaire concerning his evasion ?
    I know a photograph of the SF-H (published in a very old Kookaburra booklet). This Whirlwind is relatively intact, so I am very surprised to hear his pilot Sgt Alfred E. Brown was killed.

    Rgds.
    Régis

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Decobeck View Post
    Hi Joss,

    My information dates from 1991. I obtained a photograph of a Whirlwind (unfortunately a front one) being supposed to show an aircraft crashed at Roesbrugge-Haringe on 23/1/1943.
    Is there something interesting in his POW questionnaire concerning his evasion ?
    I know a photograph of the SF-H (published in a very old Kookaburra booklet). This Whirlwind is relatively intact, so I am very surprised to hear his pilot Sgt Alfred E. Brown was killed.

    Rgds.
    Régis
    Hi Régis,
    Is there any chance of a scan of the photo, I have heard of the existance of a photo about six years ago.
    Is it the same as one recently sold on e bay ? see links.

    http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=319
    http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=7452

    The story I was told about Brown was strange and has not been confirmed by me..........
    Apparently, Brown was 'missing' from the crashed aircraft,
    later he was found buried nearby, having been shot....
    Cheers
    Jerry

  8. #28
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    Default as we say in French, un "sac de noeuds"

    Hello Régis and Jerry,

    I think I send a full translation of the documents to Jerry a couple of years ago.

    The report of the Préfet states that on 23rd January 1943, at 1:30 PM [French Time], an English plane, single seat fighter, came down in a hamlet near Lille. No damage done [to houses or crops]. The local gendarmerie arrived on the spot after being informed at 14:45. The plane was broken at the pilot’s seat. No trace of blood. No details could be gathered about the pilot who had not been seen.

    Using FCL volume 2 (I know it’s far from complete, but this is a start) : we only have 3 planes missing on the continent :
    Two Whirlwinds of No. 137 Squadron :
    P7054, W/O A.I. DOIG who was captured on 27th January 1943
    P7095, Sgt A.E. BROWN, killed in action, and buried in Ennetières les Avelin
    A Spitfire from No. 416 Squadron,
    BM245, Sgt J.R. McLEOD, prisoner of war, “Rhubarb to France, pm”

    Actually, No. 168 Squadron lost two Mustang Is on “Rhubarbs”, in the Pas-de-Calais département, that day, with F/O B.W. KEARNEY who was killed in action, and F/O I.G. GRANT who was captured in Paris on 27th January.

    I failed to locate a PoW questionnaire for McLEOD in the WO344 series (either I missed it or there’s none). It could have helped to reduce the area where he was shot down and captured (if captured soon after being shot down). I don’t have 416 Squadron ORB for January 1943 (I have a couple of pages for February 1943). Perhaps one of our Canadian forumites might provide informations about McLEOD ?

    No. 137 Squadron ORB states :
    P/O J.A. McCLURE (P7104) and W/O A.I. DOIG (P7054) took off at 10.55, and McCLURE landed at 12.55 [English Time]. The pair encountered intense light Flak over Poperinge, split up and no further news was had of W/O DOIG who is missing.
    Lt N.A. FREEMAN (P7119) and Sgt A.E. BROWN (P7095) also took off at 10.55, FREEMAN landed at 12.50. They attacked with cannon goods train out of Aubigny station, two engine being left enveloped in steam. They then found a goods train of 45 trucks north of Doullens on which they dropped their 2 x 250 lb bombs each. The engine and the first 5 coaches were derailed and left lying on their sides with steam pouring from the engine. Light Flak had been experienced from the centre of the train and the section had lost themselves in cloud. Sgt Brown contacted Lt Freeman on the R/T and told he was o.k. but thought he had been hit in the port engine. No further news was had of Sgt Brown who is missing.

    The Préfet report unfortunately doesn’t quote the number of engines : it might have definitely answered the question about Spitfire or Whirlwind. In January 1943, German time and English time were equal, so at the time quoted in the French report, the Whirlwinds were theoretically back in U.K., or the time of crash should be about an hour earlier. Time of take-off and landing for the Spitfires of No. 416 Squadron would be useful too.

    I too would like to know precisely what happened exactly to Sgt BROWN. Perhaps when the MRES reports will be accessible to the researchers will we go one step further ?

    I hope members of the board will be able to help…

    TIA

    Joss

  9. #29
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    Default Brown

    Hi All,
    Found this.
    The extract is from past of a thread on the old LEMB before the 'crash'


    '...... Whirlwind SF-H P7095 of 137Sq. Plt Off A.E. Brown took off from Manston at 10.55 hr on a Rhubarb operation on 23 January 1943, together with Lt N.A. Freeman. After attacking a goods train north of Doullens, Brown reported that he thought he had been hit in the port engine. This was the last to be heard of him. The aircraft came down near Rheims.
    Brown was never made POW and nothing was ever heard of him until his body was found buried in Ennetieres after the war'.

    Aslo found a photocopy of the jet and prop article, 6/92 , all in german, my ability to translate is poor..

    but it seems
    'at Ennetieres in 1945 a RAF search team found a grave cross ' Sgt Manstons' on checking Browns grave was found, had he was in full raf uniform with pullover and ........... with escape money of 200 francs and a gold ring as well as a small quantity of english money with it ...............'


    'at 14:00hrs message received at Lille air office....whirlwind......18Km southwest of Arras...'



    I have tried online translations but they don't work, and the article is 6 pages long.

    Cheers
    Jerry
    Last edited by brewerjerry; 6th December 2007 at 05:03. Reason: extra info

  10. #30
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    Default about A.E. BROWN

    hello Jerry

    I tried to access the LEMB site but to no avail.

    I don't know exactly the range of a Whirlwind, from Manston, but Reims is quite unlikely, unless Sgt Brown put "black on red" on his compass. If so, he would have ran out of gas to fly back to U.K.

    Former customs officer Jozefiak at Lille airport was puzzled by this case (Ennetières les Avelin cemetery is just opposite the main runway of the airport) and spent a lot of time researching it. I met him again in May 2007 and he was still looking for information on the subject. I remember he once told me that the Luftwaffe officers who went to survey crashed P7095 drove about one hour from Lille airfield. So the Arras area is, as far as I know, the best place. This is exactly the direction of Doullens, and south of Aubigny-en-Artois which was the first place Freeman and Brown attacked.

    Anyway, this doesn't clearly explain how he was killed, considering the state of the force-landed Whirlwind.

    Joss

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