Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Stuttgart October 19/20th 1944 PFF issues

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,631
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Stuttgart October 19/20th 1944 PFF issues

    Hi,

    On the above date a select number of 3 Group crews were detailed to support the PFF against Stuttgart. These crews were only to use H2S, and not G-H.

    My question is, in what capacity were these aircraft supporting the PFF, to my knowledge they were not carrying T.I's ??

    TIA

    Steve
    No.218 (Gold Coast) Squadron Association Historian
    No.623 squadron Research

    ~~IN TIME ~~

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    449
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default

    Steve - there is no clue in the 8 Group ORB or it's squadron's ORBs. We have Oboe Mosquitos carrying red TIs and yellow TI sky markers and marked from 32,000 feet. The Pathfinder heavies were carrying red/yellow flares, various types of green and red TIs and combinations of 1,000 & 4,000 lb. bombs. I have never seen G-H and Oboe being used on the same attack so there may have been signal issues between them. I know that "Monica" could not generally be used when the primary marking was done with Oboe since it could interfere with the Oboe signals.
    Cheers

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,631
    Thanks
    37
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hi David,

    Thanks for the post, 3 Group were instructed to use H2S only in support of the PFF. No G-H was used. I really am lost to understand what actual support could have been given other than make the numbers up over the target area.

    A strange one me thinks !!

    Steve
    No.218 (Gold Coast) Squadron Association Historian
    No.623 squadron Research

    ~~IN TIME ~~

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    449
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default

    Agreed 8 Group were using about 5 different types of TIs of at least 4 colour combinations. The plan of attack called for "NEWHAVEN II" marking as well as Oboe ground and sky marking. I have seen many references to Newhaven before but not Newhaven II, maybe it has something to do with that.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    112
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Do you have the bombloads for these sorties.
    A full H.E. load ties in with the role of the 'PFF Supporter'.
    I know of a 1 Group Lanc that was detailed as such on the 28/29 July Stuttgart raid.
    I've also seen PFF squadron sorties described the same with all H.E. loads. I think it would normally be crews who were new to the squadron.
    In both cases you could describe them as experienced or skilled crews and you could imagine this to be necessary to arrive at the target at the opening of an attack and without the benefit of much to guide you in.

    Regards

    Mike

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    SW Wiltshire
    Posts
    233
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hi Steve, the 'supporter' role moved out of PFF to Main Force early in the Battle of Berlin. As such, it originally alternated between 1 and 5 Groups. The requirement remained the same - 30 experienced crews to bomb alongside the PFF 'openers', dropping HE only on H2S and chucking out window. The aim was to make it harder for predicted flak to pick off the openers and for the (fairly widespread) HE to keep the defenders' heads down and block streets to deter/hinder fire crews from deploying.

    HTH,

    Richard

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,732
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts

    Default

    Richard; just a bit of silliness (which made me smile)

    Your words "dropping HE only on H2S and chucking out window" conjured up visions of the crews lifting the bombs and chucking out the window!

    Regards

    Pete
    Main areas of research:

    - CA Butler and the loss of Lancaster ME334 (http://rafww2butler.wordpress.com/ )
    - Aircrew Training (Basic / Trade / Operational / Continuation / Conversion)
    - The History of No. 35 Squadron (1916 - 1982) (https://35squadron.wordpress.com/)

    [Always looking for copies of original documents / photographs etc relating to these subjects]

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    112
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Gents

    Here are a few extracts from the ORB for RAF Warboys (156 Sqn PFF) for 19th Feb 1944 (Leipzig);
    "A/C required:- 6 Prim. B/Mkrs, 6 Blind B/Up, 4 Vis. B/Up, 5 Supporters."
    "Supporters were to bomb blindly, or if Special Equipment u/s, visually or on good D.R."

    In the period for which I have images of this book (Jan/Feb 44), the supporter requirement occurs for every op in various quantities.

    regards

    Mike

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    SW Wiltshire
    Posts
    233
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteT View Post
    visions of the crews lifting the bombs and chucking out the window!
    :)

    Didn't some a/c have to do that on the 1000 bomber raids?

    Mike, as I understand it, non-qualified PFF crews flew as supporters until passed ready for marking duties. So, per my earlier post, the role didn't 'move out of', but extended, from PFF to Main Force.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    London, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    449
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default

    I had another look throught the PFF squadron ORBs on Stuttgart. Mike is correct that one of the most common duties PFF crews were assigned at this time were as Supporters. Stuttgart called for both sky and grundmarking. 8 Group squadrons put up anywhere from 2 to 6 aircraft in each of the following roles - Blind Illuminators, Blind Markers, Primary Visual Centerers, Visual Centerers and Blind Sky Markers. None played the role of Supporter whereas on the 15th/16th op to Wilhelmshaven, many PFF aircraft were Supporters. In this case it may be the PFF couldn't put up enough aircraft to also cover the Supporter role. The combination of ground and sky marking required more aircraft marking. On Oct.23 the PFF put up quite a few Supporters for the attack on Essen which was a 1,000 bomber raid.
    Last edited by David Wallace; 14th September 2017 at 13:52.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •