Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Aircraft lost 8th July 1941.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    330
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Aircraft lost 8th July 1941.

    On an operation to Hamm on 6th July 1941 my father notes in his log book,

    " On the return trip, halfway between Den Helder and Cromer, what appeared to be an aircraft was seen to go down in flames from approximately 5,500 feet and explode on the water."

    I am curious to know if any forum members can identify the aircraft mentioned.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berkshire
    Posts
    2,210
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hi David
    From Chorley, Bomber Command Losses Vol 2, there are 4 possibilities.
    10 Sqn,Whitley V,Z6627,reported as lost without trace
    44 Sqn Hampden,AE153,lost without trace.The body of Sgt F W Black was recovered on 18/8/41 and reburied at sea after identification,but it doesn't say where or by whom
    78 Sqn Whitley V T4209, Badly damaged by Flak and ditched off the E Coast at 0429.One survivor swam ashore and raised the alarm but the rest were never found
    78 Sqn Whitley V,Z6555, crashed in the N Sea.One crew member,Sgt K Noddle, buried on the Danish Island of Romo
    I can only suggest that the most likely is T4209, as flak damage could have caused a late outbreak of fire and caused the decision to ditch close to the UK.The survivor, Sgt J F Hafferden swam 9 miles to reach shore although this doesn't quite fit "half way between Den Helder and Cromer"
    Regards
    Dick

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Peterborough UK
    Posts
    381
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    David, From the choices available I would go for either AE153 of 44 Squadron or Z6555 of 78 Squadron with a strong leaning towards the latter of the two.
    "Halfway between Den Helder and Cromer" would put the crash site about 70 miles off the Norfolk coast. The body of the 44 Squadron crewman was just described as being "recovered from the water" with no location given to offer any clues at all. However,
    the body of a crewman from Z6555 was buried on Romo, Denmark, which lies NE of the line Den Helder-Cromer. Given prevailing wind direction and tidal flows I'm inclined to the conclusion that Z6555 is probably the most likely candidate.
    I'm not dismissing Dick's conclusion out of hand, but, the difference between a man swimming 9 miles to shore and a point halfway across the North Sea is just to large a discrepancy for me. One final point, the aircraft in question was seen to "explode on the water", which doesn't suggest any survivors were likely.
    If any timings were recorded by your father, that might help a little.
    Bill.
    Last edited by BillG; 24th September 2010 at 16:36.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    330
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    BillG, from his log book for this operation my father logged a take off time of 2255 hours and a duration of 5.20 hours.

    The squadron orbs record a take off time of 2250 hours and time down as 0405 hours.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Peterborough UK
    Posts
    381
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Thanks David, will do a bit of calculating to see if we can narrow the field.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Peterborough UK
    Posts
    381
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    David
    After reappraising all the info to hand, I'm going to stick my neck out and commit myself to Z6555. The timings, probable courses and the distances involved all seem to point to an aircraft returning to one of the northern airfields. At the time Chorley states that Z6555 crashed into the sea, I calculate it would have been roughly half way between Den Helder and Cromer but slightly north of that line.
    Of course, there are some assumptions on my part and I am open to challenge from other forumites but I'm sticking with my original candidate.
    Best wishes,
    Bill.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    330
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Very interesting Bill, thanks for your time and efforts.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    1
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    I would agree that the aircraft in question is 10 Sqn,Whitley V,Z6627. My aunt's brother was co-pilot on this aircraft, he was Clifford MacKenzie "Mack" Martin. Whilst researching our family tree I came across Mack's military records in Canada. Amongst these is an Investigation Report into the crash dated 26.02.41. There was a crew of five on board, four sergeants: McLean, Martin, Noddle and Byrne and a P/O observer Mountain. This report states:

    1. Some time after the crash all members were washed ashore on the island of Rømø. Due to the heat in summer, all bodies were fairly decomposed and identification was very difficult. Only SGT NODDLE wore his identification discs. Therefore it is doubtful if exhumation would bring any results, and it is not recommended. There were no other crashes in that area at that time.

    2. The chief of police at TØNDER managed to hide his police reports about the men washed ashore. They were helpful in identifying the bodies.

    3. On 20th July 1941 a body was washed ashore south-west of LANOLD on RØMØ. On his person were some Canadian Yale keys and a flying boot marhed "Made in Canada". Obviously it was the body of SGT MARTIN. The only Canadian in the crew.

    4. SGT NODDLE was washed ashore near HAVNEBY on RØMØ on 15/8/41; and on the same day another body on HAVSAND beach. He is believed to be P/O MOUNTAIN.

    5. A further body believed to be SGT BYRNE was washed ashore on RØMØ on 25th August 1941.

    6. On 28th August 1941 a fifth body was washed ashore on the southern beach of RØMØ. It was in an advanced stste of decomposition. It was dressed in a purlpe sweater and a pair of blue overalls, and was mistaken for a sailor or a civilian. It is obvious that he was SGT McLEAN. the only Australian in the crew. Wearing overalls for flying was popular among Australians in summer time.

    7. All effects found on the above airmen were taken by the German army. All five were buried in KIRKEBY on RØMØ.
    SGT MARTIN in Grave 262 on 22.7.41
    SGT NOBBLE in Grave 263 on 16.8.41
    SGT McLEAN in Grave 266 on 13.9.41

    Graves no. 264 and 265 contain the bodies of P/O MOUNTAIN and SGT BYRNE but it is impossible to confirm in which of the two graves these two airmen are buried.

    8. May however grave registration action be take.

    It is signed by Wing Commander, Commanding, No. 3 M.R. & E.U., Denmark

    It hope this is helpful to anyone interested. Mack had a short-lived flying career, he arrived in Liverpool from Canada on 5th April 1941 and was dead by 9th July.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kirkeby
    Posts
    444
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts

    Default

    Hello Greenwich

    I have some updated details, a short summary of a 2018 status.

    SGT MARTIN in Grave 262 on 22.7.41 - Grave cannot be accepted as Sergeant Martin...evidence insufficient...Flying boots size 9. Sergeant Martin was issued with Flying boots size 9 1/2 according his document file. Grave Registered as "An Airman Of the 1939-1945 War", RAF, Known unto God.

    SGT NOBBLE in Grave 263 on 16.8.41 - Grave accepted as Flight Sergeant Guesford. (V6375)

    SGT McLEAN in Grave 266 on 13.9.41 - Grave registered as "A Sailor Of the 1939-1945 War", Known unto God.

    Grave no. 264 - Grave accepted as Flight Sergeant Noddle. (Z6555)

    Grave no. 265 - Grave accepted as Flight Sergeant Rolfe. (V6375)

    Sources: Kirkeby Cemetery Record Book, CWGC Headstones on same Cemetery, Correspondence from R.C.A.F. Ottawa to R.C.A.F. Casualty Liason Officer, London. Officer Commanding, No. 18 Section, Missing Research and Enquiry Service, Royal Air Force, Kolding, Denmark. 4th January and 14th February 1947.

    Regards

    Finn Buch
    Last edited by Argus; 14th October 2018 at 19:14.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •