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Thread: Questions on the contents of a f1180

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    Default Questions on the contents of a f1180

    Hello All,

    I have just received a F1180 from RAFM (so they are getting back to normal business!).

    It is for Hudson 3a FK743 27 Mar 45 251 Sqn nr Reykjavik. It confirms what had already been surmised/deduced, by me, from other data pertaining to the crash. All was not well. But before I jump in with both feet where angels fear to tread, I have some questions on the F1180.

    I seek your help:
    1. Is the “F.C.O.” likely to be the Flying Control Officer?
    2. Is there a definition, or definitions, of the Classes of bearings obtainable – and given – by the H/F D/F stations in the location at the time? I’m looking for what constituted a Class 1(or 'A') bearing, or Class 2(or 'B'), etc, etc. (NB I have had considerable experience of working with H/F in various parts of the world/day/night, but not of H/F D/F.)
    3. What is the difference between cols ‘K’ and ‘M’ in the section ‘People In Aircraft’?
    4. What is contained in KR 1154?

    TIA
    Peter Davies
    Last edited by Resmoroh; 25th May 2018 at 14:51.
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Hi Peter:

    That would be Killed and Missing of those on board.

    Robert

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    Robert,
    But all 5 bodies recovered and interred Fossvogur, Reykjavik [CWGC]. The only numbers that fit are 4 x Off, and 1 x SNCO?
    Peter
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Further to Peter's #3, AIR 27/1507/16 (251 Sqn ORB March 1945) gives the crew as:

    P/O J J Yule (Pilot)
    F/Lt N Smith (Nav)
    P/O T M Lincoln (W/Op)
    P/O W Edmonson (W/Op)
    Sgt A R Simmonds (Met Observer)

    The bodies of the crew were recovered on 9 April 1945 (Peter Rackliff Even the Birds Were Walking).

    Brian

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    4 killed 1 missing - Yu;le was orginally missing then M crossed out beside his name and amended to K - no corresponding amendment was deemed necessary to the 4 and 1 bozes as 5 crew listed in total box.

    See also dates in bottom left box for when the F1180 was altered by subsequent documents eg 18/4 15/5

    Class a or 1 fix - plotted from two or more class a bearings
    Class b or 2 fox - plotted from one class A bearing and one or more class b or c bearings

    Class a bearing - plus or minus upto 2 deg
    class b bearing - plus or minus upto 5 deg

    KR and ACI 1154 - Reproof of Officers and Warrant Officers.

    Ross
    Last edited by Ross_McNeill; 25th May 2018 at 21:19.
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    Ross (et al)

    Mni tks for your help.
    This is the first F1180 I’ve worked with from the beginning. There are clearly some pitfalls. I would be grateful if you could answer another couple of questions (and then I’ll go away and leave you in peace!).

    The ‘PLACE’ is written as ’63 35 N 21 49 W’. That location is, in fact, 20.9nm South of the probable crash location. The nearest ‘dd mm’ to the probable crash location is actually ’63 55 N 21 49 W’. Is this sort of error a rarity on F1180 – or, in the rush to complete the form, commonplace?

    Dawn at the crash location at that date would have been 0710Z [USN website]. Therefore more than half of the flight was at ‘NIGHT’, not ‘DAY’ as written?

    The script says “Flying at 1200 ft in cloud”. 1200ft on what? AMSL, or on the Pilot’s altimeter (in front of him on the instrument panel). If the former, how did the investigators know? If the latter, on what sub-scale setting? Was the altimeter recovered from the wreckage?

    The probable actual crash location was between the hills of Kistufell (GE 63.9343 -21.8043 1778ft) and Brennisteinsfjöll (GE 63.9234 -21.8127 1444ft) at an estimated height of c. 1700ft ASL.. This is 500ft above 1200ft. If the a/c had been at 1200ft AMSL it would have impacted the 1200ft contour about 1.00nm south of the probable crash site. Question: Was the Pilot using the correct sub-scale setting (and was the Control Zone responsible for issuing the sub-scale setting?, did Met get the setting right?, did the Flying Control Officer pass it correctly – and did the Pilot actually set it correctly?)?

    Additionally, there seems to have been a degree of ‘cross-purposes’ (either deliberately, or accidentally!) between Pilot, Nav, and WoP. (BTW, I understand the operation, and use, of a ‘beacon’, and a ‘radio-range’.) Reykjavik airfield bears 344 deg True from the probable crash site. If FK743 was on QDMs then that QDM would probably have been c. 314 deg M (the declination was c. -30 deg in Iceland in 1945!!!!). Was the Pilot’s magnetic compass (located level with his shins below the control-wheel/column) recovered from the wreckage? What heading was set?

    And, finally, the statement on the F1180 that “sub-normal H/F conditions does not affect accuracy of bearings, only limits the range” is only marginally correct. Getting a ‘null’, or ‘max’, signal out of Strength 5 QRN (let alone somebody else’s QRM) is at art-form. The difference(s) between a Class 1 fix, and Class 2, fixe(s) expands the search area - at any distance - exponentially. When survival, in dinghy/sea, is measured in hours then minimising the search area is vital. I have been trying to find the locations of the various D/F, and M/F, facilities but without much success

    Please be aware that I am not trying to re-write history, or re-apportion ‘blame’ (although I think, in this instance, the FCO might have been a bit harshly done-by!). I am simply trying to understand what can be teased out of these ancient documents if the right questions are asked, and before I order another dozen, or so!!! Also be aware that I have been on “both sides of the table” wrt some modern ‘incidents’ on the PTAs, and on Ops - so I do have some practical experience! Avoided a certain military corrective institute at Colchester!!!

    Rgds
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    F1180 in this July 1944 format expanded it's original role of summary card to that of being also able to assist in extensive statistical search. To enable this far more summary information was recorded on the F1180 and the optical co-incidence edge perforations were added.

    Using long rods - card drops could be done on large numbers of F1180s to release those matching the information condition(s)

    It's important to view the F1180 as one surviving piece of a much more extensive information storage system.

    The F1180 has a summary but the detail is contained in the referenced documents and other file enclosures in the Air Ministry File Registry.

    In 1945 all of the questions you ask will be covered in file attachments available to the enquirer on request to the File Registry - in 2018 that File Registry has been partially destroyed in accordance with KR&ACI on retention rules and what remains distributed through several archive locations.

    Form 412 usually exists in the RAFAHB as does the Personnel Report but Form 765(c) and Form 1669 usually have been destroyed.

    The Personnel Report can contain copies of F765(c) and/or F1669 but this is pot luck.

    Normally only casualty information is amended on the F1180 as the card update progresses with each stage of inquiry so the location can be assumed to be that initially sent by F765(c) and would have been rendered within 24 hrs of being reported missing.

    As to the height - the pilot reported height to the Flying Control Officer along with details of difficulty encountered. The F1180 makes no detail of alt setting or reference so that detail would need sight of the F412 for any further definition.

    So the F1180 was meant as an immediate summary - not detail and not extensively corrected as other readily available documents more than adequately provided that need.

    You can request a precis of the Personnel Report 1779 from the RAFAHB under their remit of access before it is transferred to Public Domain - examples of the detail it could contain can be found in the ones currently released to Public Domain at the TNA under AIR81.

    As to extent of what a Form 412 could contain
    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...urt-of-Inquiry
    (Jagan or one of the other Mods will tell you where in the Gallery to look for the images referenced in the broken links)

    This is a more modern one in the Gallery
    http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries...12-Proceedings

    The F412, if it survives is still held by the RAFAHB but is a fragile document and photocopy/transcript is at the whim of Authority as access to this document is for MoD internal distribution only and outside the RAFAHB public information remit.

    Before you don your foil hat and go off on a government conspiracy to personally keep un-involved ex Met in the dark on what you feel you have a need to know.......

    As Yule was RCAF you can request a copy of his Casualty File from Canadian Archives - this usually is faster than RAFAHB and usually contains the same basic info as RAFAHB archive.

    Edit-
    Air Ministry provided a diagram of where accident report go and who adds what - with coloured pencil
    http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries...t-Report-Forms

    Ross
    Last edited by Ross_McNeill; 27th May 2018 at 10:14.
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    Ross, Hi,
    VMT. Yr time/effort in explaining the background details and the whys/wherefores of the F1180 is much appreciated!
    Rgds
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

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    Ross's links - Had to update the word Images with photos to make them work.

    Early Version
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3451.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3452.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3453.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3454.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3455.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3456.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3457.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3458.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3459.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3460.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3461.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3462.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3463.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3464.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3465.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3466.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3467.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3468.JPG


    Alternate Format
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1306.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1307.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1308.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1309.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1310.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1311.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1312.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1313.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1314.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1315.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1316.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1317.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1318.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF1319.JPG


    Later Version
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3624.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3625.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3626.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3627.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3628.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3629.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3630.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3631.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3632.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3633.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3634.JPG
    http://www.rafcommands.com/photos/Fo...U/DSCF3635.JPG

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