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Thread: Me. 163 Claim 14/15 Feb 1945

  1. #1
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    Default Me. 163 Claim 14/15 Feb 1945

    I have the log book belonging to Flt Lt Wallace who was piloting 156 / T on the night of 14 / 15 Feb '45 against Chemnitz. In it he has written 'One ME 163 (ft) claimed' and on the following page 'Confirmed'. I'm keen to understand more about this engagement. There is nothing in any of the combat reports at Kew, although the NWD Vol 2 (Page 265) by Dr Boiten / MacKenzie states that crews reported attacks by such an aircraft.


    Can anyone shed any light on this claim please?

    VMT

    Jonny
    In fond memory of Corporal James Oakland AGC (RMP), killed in action in Afghanistan on 22 October 2009. Exemplo Ducemus.

  2. #2
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    Hello,

    The following is known:

    15/2/1945
    ?./JG 400, Brandis
    Me 163B WNr 190 593

    Aircraft destroyed SW of Bohlen, pilot not injured (No further details).

    See:
    Me 163 Rocket Interceptor Vol.Two.
    Ransom,Stephen & Hans-Hermann Cammann
    Crowborough:Classic Publications,2003.
    p.428 (Appendix 6 - Me 163 Flight Log - Production Aircraft)

    Whether there is any connection with the 156 Sqn claim, I have no idea! Bohlen is located to the NNW of Chemnitz, and could have been on the flight path of the Lancaster*. Timing is important, Night/Day.

    14/15-2-1945 - Op:Chemnitz

    * Pilot: 120873 F/L (Pilot) Frank Donald WALLACE RAFVR (later DFC) - Lancaster III PB593:GT-T; Up: 20:53, Down: 04:29. Over target: 00:34 - 18,000' (2nd attack):

    120873 F/L (Pilot) Frank Donald WALLACE RAFVR (later DFC)
    944052 Sgt (F/E) Edmund OGDEN RAFVR (later DFM)
    197343 Sgt Nav.1) George William BLICK RAFVR (later DFC)
    1580292 F/Sgt (Nav.2) William Ivor DAVIES RAFVR (later 196415 DFC)
    ???????? F/Sgt (W.Op.) J T BARNES RAFVR
    ???????? P/O (MUG) John Maurice Michael MACKRORY RCAF
    2219276 F/Sgt (RG) James HAYTON RAFVR (later DFM)

    HAYTON, James. 2219276 Flight Sergeant, No.156 Sqn.
    L.G. 16/11/1945. Sorties 43, Flying hours 230.20. Air Gunner. AIR2/9137

    Flight Sergeant Hayton has completed 43 operational sorties, 40 of which have been completed in the pathfinder Force. This N.C.O. is a keen and determined gunner who has shown fine zest in his operational work. In combat, he has proved unflinching and his ready and accurate instructions to his Captain has resulted in the evasion of enemy aircraft. He has one claim to his credit, an Me.163 probably destroyed during an attack on Chemnitz on 14th February, 1945. Flight Sergeant Hayton has shown keenness, zest and devotion to duty of a high order and I recommend him for the award of the Distinguished Flying Medal.

    12th May, 1945.

    See: The Distinguished Flying Medal Register/Tavender/I/A-J/846.

    Col.
    Last edited by COL BRUGGY; 17th September 2018 at 07:28.

  3. #3
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    Now, if I’ve used aa.usno.navy.mil/rstt/onedaytable?ID=AA&year=1945&month=2&day=14&place=& lon_sign=1&lon_deg=12&lon_min=23&lat_sign=1&lat_de g=51&lat_min=12&tz=&tz_sign=-1 correctly then at ground level at Longitude E12 23', Latitude N51 12' on Wednesday, February 14, 1945:-
    Sunset was 1624Z
    End Civil Twilight (i.e. darkness?) 1658Z
    Can’t work out what difference the a/c altitude would make.
    There had been a new moon on 12 Feb 45. So the moon would be only 5% illuminated.
    NB All times are Z (GMT). What time zone was used for the Nav logs, and/or the German military/police reports, I leave to the experts!!
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Resmoroh View Post
    Can’t work out what difference the a/c altitude would make.
    This one stumped me until a cheeky youngster pointed out that a pilot at 30,000 feet does not see the same horizon as a person standing directly below him on the ground: the pilot sees a further horizon and so will see a later sunset. That is why they put lookouts at the top of masts on ships.

    HTH
    Bruce
    http://www.filephotoservice.co.uk/
    RESEARCH AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES & OTHER UK INSTITUTIONS

  5. #5
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    Jonny,

    You have some background information by RodM regarding claims against rocket and jet fighters on http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=13788


    Peter

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    Interesting and informative stuff chaps. Thanks very much for taking the trouble to respond.

    Rgds

    Jonny
    In fond memory of Corporal James Oakland AGC (RMP), killed in action in Afghanistan on 22 October 2009. Exemplo Ducemus.

  7. #7
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    Hi Jonny,

    regarding the Me.163 claim - while Station or Group headquarters may have unofficially "confirmed" the air combat claim, Bomber Command Headquarters definitely did not confirm the claim.

    The policy/stance of Bomber Command Headquarters at the time was that crews were encountering some kind of rocket or projectile other than a piloted aircraft.

    The official monthly lists of air combat claims accepted/approved by Bomber Command Headquarters do not include any nighttime claims against overtly-identified jet- or rocket-propelled aircraft. Instead, the reports note that Headquarters could not assess the claims satisfactorily so none were included. In the relevant report covering February 1945, it notes crews made claims against jet- or rocket-propelled aircraft totalling 15 Destroyed and one Damaged and none of the claims were included in the narrative list of the report.

    Cheers

    Rod

    PS - I can add the following brief detail from the Bomber Command Interception Tactics Report:

    6. Attacks & Combats.

    Chemnitz (2nd): Outward - Karlsruhe, 2310 hrs. 1 combat with T/E E/A. Near Coburg, 0007 hrs, 1 combat with Me.109. Target - 1 casualty but no other combats. Homeward - south of Chemnitz, 0038 hrs, 1 combat with Me.109 and, 0040 hrs, 1 T/E attacked. SE and S of Stuttgart, 0137 hrs, 1 attack by a S/E E/A, and 0145 hrs 1 attack by a Me.163.

    The map accompanying the Interception Tactics Report plots the two attacks during the 2nd Chemnitz raid. I estimate the locations as:


    0137 hrs, attack by S/E E/A (identified as a "FW.190" in a No. 1 Group summary, reported by crew of 460 Sqn Lancaster NG466) : approx. 48 35 N, 09 55 E

    0145 hrs, attack by Me.163 (presumably reported by F/L Wallace and crew in 156 Sqn Lancaster PB593) : approx 48 20 N, 08 45 E

    Note that an "attack" in official Bomber Command lingo was an encounter where the enemy aircraft opened fire. A "Combat" was an encounter where only the Bomber aircraft opened fire.
    Last edited by RodM; 18th September 2018 at 21:09.

  8. #8
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    Rod,

    That is most interesting. Thank you for adding to my knowledge.

    Kind rgds

    Jonny
    In fond memory of Corporal James Oakland AGC (RMP), killed in action in Afghanistan on 22 October 2009. Exemplo Ducemus.

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