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Thread: Duisburg (21/02/1945)

  1. #11
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    Hi Pete,

    In going back to the Bomber Command Loss Cards, I see that the No. 1 Group losses (referenced to the Card for 626 Sqn KM105) prescribe the route as:

    Bases - Reading - 5000N 0200E 5010N/0500E 5050N/0540E Target 5128N/0649E 5130N/0550E 5055N/0520E 5035N/0410E Bexhill

    The No. 8 (Pathfinder Force) losses (referenced to the Card for 35 Sqn ME367) prescribe a route that excludes 5050N, 0540E and 5128N, 0649E but includes the GEE chain lattice reference:

    5000N/0200E 5010N/0500E Ruhr-C = 36.29 Target 5130N/0550E 5055N/0520E 5035N/0410E Hastings

    Thus, the information from the No. 1 Group From B I presented is of no use!

    I would recommend TNA AIR 25/171 (ORB Appendices) since these contain the No. 8 (Pathfinder Force) Group Forms B Part II (containing the briefed routes), although I suspect they will only confirm the route as given on the Loss Card. I've checked some of the Forms B for March 1945, and the routes contain references to GEE, G-H, and LORAN stations...

    Cheers

    Rod

  2. #12
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    Pete and Rod, I have taken down the last few posts and will look at them over the weekend. Pete, regarding the arc to the target. In my opinion, and I am happy to be corrected here, that looks like an OBOE run rather than GEE. GEE, as a receiver, was a navigation aid. GEE H which was an "add on" was a bombing aid. It was a matter of GEE to the target; a passive aid. GEE H over the tgt, which was an active (i.e. transmitting) aid, then GEE away from the target. Having put a lot of effort into understanding GEE, I have come to the conclusion that you would need to be an operator yourself or have a conversation with somebody who was conversant with the system, both of which are well nigh in possible today. Regards, Terry

  3. #13
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    Hi Terry and Pete,

    The impression I get is that the Pathfinder navigators on the Duisburg raid would have used a specific Ruhr Chain GEE lattice map rather than a generic GEE lattice map. Ditto when they used other GEE chains on the European continent.

    If correct, then the only way to decipher Ruhr-C = 36.29 is with the correct Ruhr chain GEE lattice map...

    Cheers

    Rod

    Cheers

    Rod
    Last edited by RodM; 21st September 2018 at 22:07.

  4. #14
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    Gents, There is little difference between the 1 and 8 Gp routes. The differences are that 1 Group crossed the tgt to a reference point about 2 nm beyond the tgt whereas the 1 GP did an immediate left turn off the tgt with both groups heading to the next coord (5130N 0550E). The other major difference at 5035N 0410E 1 Gp headed for Bexhill while 8 Gp headed for Hastings. When I commented on 36.29 being on the track from 5000N 0200E to 5010N 0500E I was using a Ruhr Chain lattice map to make the assumption. Regards, Terry

  5. #15
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    Hi Terry,

    the one inconsistency I see is the approximate coordinates of the Ruhr-C chain reference - approx 50 08 N, 04 28 E. This is west of the previous waypoint - 50 10 N, 05 00 E.

    Cheers

    Rod

  6. #16
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    Rod, I have failed plotting 101. I now suggest that the Ruhr C Chain Ref is approx 5105N 0616E. I still think it is an intersect as a fix would entail two sets of figures. Regards, Terry

  7. #17
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    Sorry I'm late to the party here. My father flew on this operation and I have put together plots on Google Maps for all of his operations. This is what I have for the route for this operation and it corresponds relatively well with the chart I have from the night raid reports for this target and date. That is, for all turning points Except the point directly after the target at 51 degrees 28 minutes N and 6 degrees 49 minutes East (all points I plotted are in decimal degrees). The chart from the night raid report suggest the force turned north, whereas the route that I have (same as Rod's) suggests the force continues almost on the same track as to the target, NE. One other point: I understand that the Oboe mosquitos would have taken a different route to the target.

    The compass bearings (True) and Great Circle distances are calculated according to trigonometric formulae and are therefore accurate, assuming the inputs are correct. Posting the link to the route:

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1A8...k4&usp=sharing

    Jim

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