Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: "Unknown" Gloster Gladiator Collision March 14th 1940 near Stroud Glos

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,632
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 67 Times in 61 Posts

    Default "Unknown" Gloster Gladiator Collision March 14th 1940 near Stroud Glos

    All

    As you all know

    I am making a study of all RAF parachute escapes upto April 30th 1940 - Around 500 Incidents

    A long term mystery on mine was a Collision between Pilots P/O James Reginald Bryan "Jim" Meaker and P/O Charles Francis Ambrose around Feb/March 1940

    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...or-46-SQN-1940

    A correspondent of mine has recently (via a House Clearance - so he a can't ask the original owner) obtained a box of Gloster Gladiator bits which were labelled

    "Gladiator. Collision Calowell Farm Near Whiteshill, Stroud 14th of March 1940. Aircraft believed to be from 5 o.t.u. Aston Down"

    - A written report with the bits also mentions Bail Out (i.e Parachute) and 3 aircraft in formation at the time

    This incident is new to me and I can't find any reference to it in my research, nor any aircraft losses for Gladiators which match- It does not mean it did not happen though (as we all know)

    However, for reference

    1) What I do know about the incident to Meaker and Ambrose is an account by Meaker in which it says he was flying in formation when the collision occurred,
    b) A further Internet Bio on Meaker says he was involved in a "Gladiator" Collision,
    c) Meaker and Ambrose were at 12 Group Pool at Aston Down at the same time - So the location is good
    d) As I have said before the dates are right

    Ambrose joined 12 Group Pool February 1940

    For Ambrose I also have

    "After converting to 'Hurricanes' he was posted to 46 Squadron at Digby on 23rd March."

    - 12 Group Pool would have had a couple of Hurricanes but mainly Gladiators as they were teaching not only too to operate Hurricanes but also fighters in general - They also had Harvard and Blenheims

    I have been looking at this for years, and I know not to get my hopes up, but this feels 'right' - I have always suspected the incident happened in their training together at Aston Down

    Note: Ambrose and Meaker were not in Norway together when Collision occurred, whatever the books/Internet says. Meaker prob never went and Ambrose if he did go did not fly Operationally

    The dates DO NOT match UP anyway - Incident happened late Feb/Early March 1940

    I wonder if any of your members knows of a collision on this date at this location and the aircraft involved ??


    Many Thanks

    Paul McMillan

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,632
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 67 Times in 61 Posts

    Default

    BTW

    5 OTU
    Formed on 6 March 1940 at Aston Down by re-designating 12 Group Pool.

    So 5 OTU at the time of incident

    http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_raf_otu.htm


    K7945 28/03/40 SOC. already looks interesting !

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    6,403
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts

    Default

    Hello,

    21st March 1940.

    Gloster Gladiator K7944 No.5 OTU.

    Collided with Gladiator K7945 over Salmon Springs, Caliwell (Callowell), during aerobatic practice and crashed.

    Gloster Gladiator K7945 No.5 OTU.

    See above.

    See:
    Wings Over Gloucestershire
    Rennison,John.
    N.P.,:Aspect (Author), 2000 (2nd.rev.ed.).
    pp.155-6

    That's what Rennison has to say!

    Col.
    Last edited by COL BRUGGY; 8th January 2019 at 11:01.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,632
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 67 Times in 61 Posts

    Default

    Col

    Thanks for date - MUST Be the same Incident - Even though dates are different

    Looks like we may have a miss-id somewhere

    http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_raf_otu.htm

    K7944 06/03/40 From 12 Group Pool To the Middle East.
    To 112 Sq.

    So it written off before it was sent!

    K7944 From 5 OTU.
    To the Middle East.
    To 112 Sq. 12/01/40 Overshot landing and hit fence, Helwan, and damaged beyond repair.

    https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=68966

    Date: 12-JAN-1940
    Time:
    Type: Gloster Gladiator Mk I
    Owner/operator: 112 Squadron Royal Air Force (112 Sqn RAF)
    Registration: K7944
    C/n / msn:
    Fatalities: Fatalities: 0 / Occupants: 1
    Other fatalities: 0
    Aircraft damage: Written off (damaged beyond repair)
    Location: RAF stn Helwan - Egypt
    Phase: Landing
    Nature: Military
    Departure airport:
    Destination airport: RAF Helwan
    Narrative:
    Overshot landing into fence & DBR.


    Paul

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Limerick, Ireland.
    Posts
    454
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    Paul,

    you probably know already but just in case there are no matching Form 1180/1183s, having just checked January to June 1940 inclusive. There are several for 5 OTU but not the ones you want.

    Regards,

    Martin Gleeson.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,632
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 67 Times in 61 Posts

    Default

    Martin

    Thanks for confirming no form

    A cryptic note on the Glad bits says “no record AHB” so either misfiled, lost, stolen or never created !

    All goes to show why this incident has remained elusive to me

    The only issue is that Air Britain states K7944 at 5 OTU in March 1940 and then transferred to Middle East and had an accident on 12 January 1940 while with 112 Sqn at Helwan,Egypt I think this is a mistake in the AB books in either serial or date

    It can’t have been in 2 places at same time

    Do you have A 1180/1181 for this incident in Jan 1940?

    Of course it may be a typo on year but I think could be another K79n4 or K794n

    What is interesting is the delivery of K9744 to 112 Sqn does not Fit with any other aircraft which all arrived earlier 1938/1939

    See


    http://raf-112-squadron.org/112_sqn_gladiators.html


    Many thanks

    Paul

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Limerick, Ireland.
    Posts
    454
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default

    Paul,

    There is a poorly written-up F.1180 for Gladiator K7977 on 12 January 1940 with 112 Squadron. It overshot on landing and hit a fence at Helwan, with a '?' after Helwan. Pilot was Sgt. E. N. Woodward, apparently unhurt. That's all.
    I note however that the three '7's in the serial all look the same but someone might (could) have read them as '4's ! Cannot have been a bad accident for K7977 as it served in the Middle East and East Africa until 6 November 1940.

    Martin.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,632
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 67 Times in 61 Posts

    Default

    Martin

    Sgt. E. N. Woodward = Sgt Ernest Norman Woodward #566289

    Thanks


    Paul

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Borlänge, Sweden
    Posts
    115
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hello

    According to 112 Sq. ORB no Gladiator was destroyed on 12/01/40 which is strange since other losses during the month is recorded.
    I think Martin is up to something here - K7977 was damaged but not a write off (this aircraft has combat history).
    The delivery date of K7944 t the Middle East is very strange!

    Best wishes/Håkan
    WWII Biplane Fighter Aces
    http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se

    WWII Biplane Fighter Aces Blog
    http://ww2biplanefighteraces.blogspot.com/

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,632
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 67 Times in 61 Posts

    Default

    I now have visibility of the F78 of both K7944 and K7945. Both were with 12 Group Pool then 5 OTU then Written off in March 1940

    On K7945 it is dated 28 March 1940 but no specific details, K7944 just says March 1940

    So it appears they were the aircraft involved

    The date is still suspect, but before on on 28 March 1940

    Does anyone have the 5 OTU ORB ?

    thanks

    Paul

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •