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Thread: CWGC Errors

  1. #81
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    Just sent this let see what i get

    Dear CWGC

    enquiries@cwgc.org

    While looking at the casualty record today for

    P/O ROY FRANK CAROL Royal Canadian Air Force Died 06/06/1944

    who was killed in Halifax BIII LW382 on this date

    https://426sqdn.ca/remembrances/honour_roll_iii.html

    He is listed as R253018 Sgt R.F. Carol here

    However, on CWGC I note that his rank is Pilot Officer (Air Gunner) Service Number R/253018

    But your own supporting information Grave Registration Report has J.90183

    https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/c...gid=null&pid=1

    While an earlier log repeats R/253018

    It is common knowledge that for the wartime RCAF all NCO has service number starting with R and
    officers J

    Esteemed expert on the RCAF Historian Hugh Halliday provides an explanation here

    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...ervice-Numbers

    But the Important bit is

    The RCAF Special Reserve was created by Order-in-Council on 14 September 1939.
    Soon afterwards, "other ranks" were enlisted with an "R" number, which they kept unless commissioned.
    Thus, J.E. Abbey enlisted 20 January 1941 with number R82627).


    Aircrew enlistments from early 1940 onwards had to wait until they had been trained to "wings" standard
    before being either promoted Sergeant or commissioned. If commissioned, they received a "J" number (remember,
    flight engineers excepted), regardless of whether the commissioning was immediate or later in their
    career. To go back to J.E. Abbey, enlisted January 1941 as R.82627 - upon being commissioned he received a
    new number - J.86037.


    So let’s look at ROY FRANK CAROL in particular

    A source no less official than the Canadian Government (the Canada Gazette) confirms this information

    This must surely by any means be "relevant documentary evidence" and I am sure you agree?

    1867-1946 (Dominion of Canada), volume 79, number 5, 3 February 1945, page 21

    http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...3=&interval=20

    The undermentioned airmen to be Pilot Officers and are allotted personal numbers as shown after their names:

    0 CAN R253018 Sgt Roy Frank Carol, (Fatal) CAN (J90183 ) 5 June/44

    This reveals he was commissioned on 5th June 1944 (the date before his death) so technically on 6th June 1944 he as
    P/O ROY FRANK CAROL J90183. It even notes ‘Fatal’ i.e. the Canada Govt alread knew he had died at this point

    However, he could equally be listed as Sgt (Air Gunner) Service Number R/253018

    But what he can’t really be listed is “half and half” as he is at the moment?
    , i,e Officers rank, NCO Service number ???

    As his headstone says P/O I suggest his service number should be J90183 and as his Grave Registration Reports says P/O J90183 perhaps this should be used?

    Kind Regards

    Paul McMillan

  2. #82
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    Well done Paul.
    My personal experience with Mr Skelly in about fiver of my last requests is only positive. I was communicatiing with him both requests for additional information and corrections.

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

  3. #83
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    I've collected the toys I ejected from my pram this morning. Still annoyed however.

    I sent on pages from Carol's service file, but I felt that their own records ought to have been enough, thanks for the extra information you sent them Paul.

    i also sent on some instructions for them to use the ORB viewer.

    I suppose most recently i printed PDF pages from the viewer and sent them, but I did point them at the correct pages etc.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

  4. #84
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    Hi,

    As the result of my request to CWGC, the date of death for the crew of Lancaster W4105 has been corrected to 25/08/1942. It was preciously recorded as 24/08/1942 as this was the date the aircraft took off from Waddington.

    This concerns the following airmen :
    McDonald J/9524
    Page 744324
    Holland 1006787
    Hagger 820001
    Nicholson 80278
    Beaumont J/9205
    Rickard 133213

    The plane crashed at 01h10 am on 25/08/1942.

    Best regards

    Luc

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Luc Vervoort For This Useful Post:

    Jagan (4th December 2019)

  6. #85
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    Success!

    What a coincidence!!!!

    I think maybe the way forward on this is one at a time and as much evidence as you can provide!

    Dear Mr McMillan,

    Thank you for your email below and I must say this is quite a coincidence.

    2 days ago, I dealt with another enquiry from another member of the public who highlighted exactly the same error explained in your email.

    The relevant documentary evidence was supplied and I subsequently amended our internal database.

    You will now be able to see by using the link below that the correct J/ number appears on our entry for P/O Carol.

    https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/c...ol,-roy-frank/

    Kind Regards

    XXXXXX

  7. #86
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    Dear Mr XXXXX

    Thanks for correcting the information

    The reason I think maybe his name was submitted twice was that his name came up on a internet forum so maybe more than 1 person was interested enough to investigate him and see the inconsistency on your records.

    Many thanks


    Paul

    :-)

  8. #87
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    They haven't bothered reading the ORB links I directed them too for the other five or so men!!!
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

  9. #88
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    I suppose this means I'm no longer 'Officer i/c CWGC Corrections' as Peter appointed me?

    I'd created a uniform and all for myself.
    Dennis Burke
    - Dublin

    Foreign Aircrew and Aircraft Ireland 1939-1945
    www.ww2irishaviation.com

  10. #89
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    LOL Dennis.. You still are IMO. I intend to give you all the ones that I find...

    Can i say this

    If anyone posts a correction - they should also mention if it has been submitted or not -

  11. #90
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    Paul,

    I just did a query on RCAF Officers with "R" numbers and these came up

    Pilot Officer ROY FRANK CAROL R/253018 1944-06-06 7147 https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2762127
    Pilot Officer ALLAN MARTIN FOSTEY R/147033 1945-02-09 15326 https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1270287
    Pilot Officer JACK GINGRICH R/222058 1945-02-11 16807 https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2690419
    Flying Officer ROBERT JAMES GRISDALE R/89832 1945-04-10 18119 https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2201370
    Pilot Officer CHARLES KEITH HOWES R/170976 1945-04-05 21950 https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2667138
    Pilot Officer WILLIAM ROBERT DRAKE R/91074 1943-10-03 68969 https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2265355
    Pilot Officer DONALD GRAHAM McLEOD R/70652 1941-09-02 98001 https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2850738

    And in the same vein, RCAF NCOs with "J" Numbers

    Flight Sergeant JOSEPH PHILIP YOUNG J/89253 1944-05-23 50829 https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1532278
    Sergeant JOHN RUSSELL CLEMENTS J/5313 1941-09-15 63022 https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2359219




    Ignore the last two columns - they are reference numbers for my database and for CWGC..

    So more work for you!

    -Jagan

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