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Thread: 320 (Dutch) Squadron RAF personnel ranks

  1. #11
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    I think you're right regarding Bakker... Well I'm good to make some changes in my listings!
    However from the images you provided, the three classes of Luitenant ter zee should been considered as being all junior officer ranks. Not sure that its 1st class corresponds to the first senior officer rank. That's a thing I pointed at, the Dutch Navy at that time had only two senior officer ranks.
    Phil

  2. #12
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    Hi Phil
    Military ranks can be a nightmare - at least most naval rank structures were much simpler than (say) the British Army :)

    Just a couple of notes about Royal Navy ranks - the Commodore 2nd class was not really a 'Rank' as such - it was a position sometimes held by the senior captain/leader of (say) a Sqn/Flotilla of a certain number of ships,so the broad single stripe would come (and go) with the job.Commodore did not become a substantive rank in the RN until 1997.
    In the RN the rank of Lieutenant Commander was (until 1914) originally called 'Senior Lieutenant' (over 8 years seniority ) so broadly similar to a 1st Klasse Lt at that time.

  3. #13
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    Hi all, thank you all for your posts. Well I am now thinking about using the ranks W/Cdr and Sgt which would be improper but much easier for my readers otherwise I would have to explain the Dutch ranks what would take more space in my text that the paragraph about loss of those two Mitchells..

    Anyway thank you once more for analyze of this interesting but quite difficult area.

    Pavel
    Last edited by CZ_RAF; 29th September 2019 at 15:26.
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

  4. #14
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    Very wise Pavel :)

  5. #15
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    Hi all, just for interest - after some further research of Dutch sources I came to conclusion that Bakker's rank stated on his grave as "Hfd. Off. Vl. 2" would be: Hoofdofficier-vlieger der 2e klasse

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

  6. #16
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    It is your book Pavel
    But i would still respectfully argue that the correct rank for Eduard Bakker would be Commander (english) or KLTZ (Kapitein-luitenant ter zee) [Dutch].
    The Dutch Navy is like the Royal Navy in that officers of Full Commander rank have 'Scrambled Egg' on their Cap Peak ,the pics I posted of Eddy Bakker have the 3 wide 'Bars' of Full Commander + 'Scrambled Egg' on his Cap Peak.

    What I am not sure about is the Dutch Navy use of temporary or acting rank,it is quite possible he had been very recently promoted to (say) Acting Commander to take command of 320sqn,if his 'substantive' rank was Lt Commander that would translate to LTZ 1 but I think that is overcomplicating the issue and still think that KLTZ (Commander) would be the correct rank.

    On the Aircrew Remembered website (which I posted a link in Post #6) He is listed as Hfd VL 1kl -

    Which I would decode as Hfd = Hoofdman = Commandant/Captain ( Pilot),VL = Vlieger (Flyer),1kl = Luitenant ter zee der 1ste klasse (Lieutenant Commander).

    rgds baz

  7. #17
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    Hi bvs,

    yes I have used your link from Post #6 as the source and I have deciphered "Hfd. Off. Vl. 2" from the photo of his gravestone...
    From some other dutch sources (I have not the links available at the moment) I understand that Marine Luchtvaartdienst had a different ranks from Dutch Navy? Or I am totally wrong?
    I will post here the sources in question later.

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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  9. #19
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    I think you are on the right track Pavel,using a different source which looked quite official (sorry i closed the tab by mistake and could not find it again)

    Eduard Bakker is listed as Officier-vlieger der 1e klasse E Bakker,which I would say is the equivalent of Luitenant ter zee der 1ste klasse (Lieutenant Commander ) and with the same rank insignia.

    However as I posted before he is definitely wearing full commander rank insignia in the pictures from 320 sqn so still assuming that could be an Acting Rank.

  10. #20
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    Hi Pavel
    Just checking over my browsing history for last night,the website I mentioned above was defensie.nl

    https://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/...11/29/bakker-e

    Vliegerkruis: Bakker, E.
    Gegevens dapperheidsonderscheiding
    Datum Koninklijk Besluit 29-11-1941 No. 8
    Registernummer 13
    Mutatie West-Europa - operationele vluchten (251 dag- en nachtvlieguren).
    Persoonsgegevens
    Nationaliteit Nederlandse
    Rang, functie of beroep : Officier-vlieger der 1e klasse
    Onderdeel Marine Luchtvaartdienst, Koninklijke Marine
    Aan boord van / behorende tot 320 Squadron
    Overleden 25 oktober 1943
    Deel deze pagina

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