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Thread: 320 (Dutch) Squadron RAF personnel ranks

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    Default 320 (Dutch) Squadron RAF personnel ranks

    Hi all, I would like to ask in members of 320 Sq were using only RAF ranks or their original Dutch ranks or both at the same time?
    I would like to know the Dutch ranks of W/Cdr E. Bakker and Sgt C. J. Bank who were both lost on 25.10.1943.

    TIA

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Assuming Bakker was Dutch Navy - the equivalent rank would be Commander.
    This would appear to be confirmed by this photo.He has naval rank bars with executive loops.



    Photo from Reich intruders (google books) .Original photo by Jan P Kloos ?

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    Hi bvs, thanks. I have seen the photo already - but I have a little language problem. As my text would be in Czech it would seems to me not correct to put there the rank in English - I would like to know how the rank is written in Dutch. Or it is the same in English and Dutch?

    TIA

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Sorry I misunderstood Pavel.
    As far as I know - the official Dutch Rank was Kapitein-luitenant ter zee.

    I have found some old photos where the rank is captioned as KLTZ.

    I do not know if there was an unofficial term used within the Dutch Navy.

    IE within the German Navy a Kapitšnleutnant (Lt Commander) would probably have been addressed as Herr Kaleun (or Herr Kaleunt) during WW2,so I do not know if the Dutch Navy had a shorter form of address for a Kapitein-luitenant ter zee.
    Last edited by bvs; 27th September 2019 at 11:57.

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    Thanks bvs, recently I have found their ranks may be:

    Hfd.Off.Vl E. Bakker
    Sgt. Vl. C. J. Bank

    Now I have just to decode them.

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    On the Aircrew Remembered Website...

    http://aircrewremembered.com/1943-10...78-bakker.html

    He is listed as Hfd VL 1kl -

    Which I would decode as Hfd = Hoofdman = Commandant/Captain ( Pilot),VL = Vlieger (Flyer),1kl = Luitenant ter zee der 1ste klasse (Lieutenant Commander)

    So I would surmise that he was a Lt Commander but possibly promoted to be an Acting Commander to take command of 320 sqn.
    I have seen 2 different photos of him with Commander rank bars
    Last edited by bvs; 27th September 2019 at 15:01.

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    Hi bvs thank you very much once more. How complicated:-)

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Yes very Pavel :)

    With 2 different photos of Bakker wearing the 3 wide rank bars of a Full Commander I would think the correct way of reference to his rank would still be ....

    Kapitein-luitenant ter zee/ KLTZ.

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    Hi Pavel,

    There is another problem I discovered when I went to study the usage of the Mitchell by the 320 (SQUADRONS! 16). At that time, there were some Dutch Navy ranks which had no correspondance to RN ranks! The Dutch had only two senior officer ranks (Kapitein ter zee and Kapitein-luitenant ter zee) while the RN had three as most the navies (Commander, Captain and Commodore 2nd Class).
    Another point, 320 was not a full-Dutch Navy unit by 1943, having no reserves to offer especially when the Mitchell was introduced with more aircrew members to supply. Therefore 320 was reinforced with Dutch Army personnel who had volunteered for flying duty (WML - Wapen der Militaire Luchvaart) and therefore had Dutch Army ranks as the British Army.
    As Bakker had a Wing Commander rank position, personnaly I gave him the rank of Captain, Bank being WML kept the rank of Sgt in trying to keep thinsg simple for the readers. Expect more confusion as Belgians serving in the RAF were posted to 320 in 1944 and had their full RAF ranks!
    Phil

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    I agree with Phil about C J Bank being a sgt in the WML (Wapen der Militaire Luchtvaart) - Reserve sergeant-vlieger Wapen der Militaire Luchtvaart C.J. (Cornelis Jacobus) Bank.

    Wing Commander though is a direct equivalent of a Full Commander in the Dutch Navy - this photo was taken just after Bakker was given command of 320sqn - quite clearly showing the 3 wide bars/stripes of Commander Rank ( Kapitein-luitenant ter zee)


    if Bakker had been a Captain (Kapitein ter zee) he would have had 4 wide bars/stripes as in the picture below.


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