Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 19

Thread: He 111 with V-1 bomb, November 4, 1944

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lions Bay, BC
    Posts
    304
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default He 111 with V-1 bomb, November 4, 1944

    Can anyone find any record of an He 111 with V-1 bomb, November 4, 1944, that was possibly shot down in the bomber stream of a nighttime operation, November 4, 1944. I have a report that a F/O Marshall DFM DFC, might have done so, although he may have held a higher rank at the time. Unit and aircraft unknown. This is hearsay, and I am looking for confirmation.

    Jim

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lions Bay, BC
    Posts
    304
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default

    I see that a F/L A.E. Marshall was with 25 Squadron. He was not in action that evening. According to Wikipedia, he was killed in action November 27, 1944. He is credited with 19 victories. I'm looking through the 25 ORB for more info. No record of him operational on November 4, 1944.

    Edit: OK: The 25 Squadron ORB for November 27, 1944: "Towards the end of the afternoon, we witnessed a tragic accident. F/L A.E. Marshall DFC DFM (Pilot 47124) and his navigator F/O C.A. Allen (145496) having completed their "NFT" were carrying out a "Beat-up." They dived over B Flight at great speed and pulled up sharply. Immediately, vapour trails appeared at the wingtips and then there was a loud bang and we saw that both wings had broken off outboard of the engines. The remainder of the aircraft continued to climb under great impetus to about 1500 feet where it turned over and [illegible: crashed] on the ground and exploded. Both pilot and navigator were killed."

    This is new information to me. Dad said he served with this gentleman during his time at Fairoaks. I have a photo of him (taken by dad and in his photo album) with the DFC ribbon on his uniform as well as another ribbon that I cannot identify but might be the DFM.

    Jim
    Last edited by JDCAVE; 3rd March 2020 at 03:04. Reason: Additional info

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    754
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts

    Default

    Hi Jim,

    According to Air-Launched Doodlebugs by Peter J C Smith. On the night of 4/5 November 1944, KG 53 took off with 24 Heinkels with V-1 and launched 23 V-1 between 19.06 and 19.42. One aircraft was shot down before the launch by Beaufighter V8565 ZQ-F flown by S/L J Howard-Williams and F/O F J MacRae after one long burst at a Heinekel carrying a V-1 which crashed into the sea.

    The German crew was;

    Hptm Heinz Zollverein.
    Oberfeldwebel Karl Christmann
    Feldwebel Erich Schneider
    Oberfeldwebel Fritz Marhoun
    Feldwebel Leonhard

    There were no survivors.

    Two other Heinkels were lost in accidents.

    I hope that helps,

    Cheers,

    John.
    Last edited by John Williams; 2nd March 2020 at 23:06.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lions Bay, BC
    Posts
    304
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default

    Thanks John. That certainly might fit. Dad was operational that night to Bochum. He bombed at 1943 hrs. Assuming the flight plan of 160 IAS plus a tail wind from the west (275o from Bomber Command night raid report) I back calculate he would have crossed the Dutch Coast at The Hague at approximately 1904 and passed Orfordness 33 minutes earlier or approximately 1830 hrs. Dad said there was an explosion right in the middle of the bomber stream that he believe was an He111 carrying a doodlebug. Dad had heard that Marshall was responsible but he was working from memory. Certainly 25 squadron did shoot down V-1's and He.111's during the month of November, 1944.

    Fascinating investigating this stuff!

    Edit: note this is a real guesstimate. I assumed the entire tailwind push for the trip east. The reality would be less, so assume slightly earlier times reaching La Hague and Orfordness.

    Jim
    Last edited by JDCAVE; 3rd March 2020 at 02:04. Reason: Clarification.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Reading, Berkshire, UK
    Posts
    3,887
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked 27 Times in 26 Posts

    Default

    Alfred Ernest Marshall
    b. Q1 1915 Reg Portsea 2b 871 (MMS Godden)
    1931(?) Enlisted (565286) as a/c Apprentice Entry 23(?) Halton.
    6 Jun 1941 DFM - 565286 Sergeant Alfred Ernest MARSHALL, No. 73 Squadron. This airman has displayed outstanding skill, courage and devotion to duty whilst engaged on active operations against the enemy. He has personally destroyed 15 enemy aircraft. On a recent occasion he took off to engage the enemy whilst a fierce ground attack was being made against the aerodrome.
    12 Aug 1941 565286 Sgt Alfred Ernest MARSHALL, DFM Cmd Plt Off(p) RAFVR GD (47124).
    12 Aug 1942 Prom Fg Off.
    6 Oct 1942 DFC (A/Flt Lt)
    12 Aug 1943 Prom Flt Lt
    d. 27 Nov 1944 Reg Cambridge 3b 624
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Orleans, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,388
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Default

    MARSHALL, Alfred Ernest, A/F/L, DFM (47124, Royal Air Force) - No.250 Squadron - Distinguished Flying Cross - awarded as per London Gazette dated 6 October 1942. Following text from Flight, 12 November 1942; relevant Air Ministry Bulletin may have more.

    "This officer, who was awarded the Distinguished Flying Medal in May 1941, took part in the fighting in France and subsequently in the Battle of Britain. In the Western Desert he has led his flight, and often the squadron, with great gallantry and success. Flight Lieutenant Marshall has participated in the majority of the recent spectacular operations of his wing, and has destroyed 15 enemy aircraft."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berkhamsted & Malta
    Posts
    78
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Hi

    I note from Aces High that Alfred Marshall is credited with shooting down a V1-launching He111 on the night of 6th-7th October 1944, so perhaps that event has become mixed up with this one.

    As for Jeremy Howard-Williams' claim on the night of 4th November 1944, his combat report gives the time of the combat as 1940 hrs (presumably local time whereas a bomber navigator's log would normally be GMT I think) and the place as being 45m E. of Winterton. He also notes "Time and place of combat confirmed by a Mosquito of 125 Squadron and an ASR aircraft." He makes no mention of the presence of a British bomber force. Ammunition expenditure is given as given as 90 rounds which represents only about 2.5 seconds fire.

    Niall

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lions Bay, BC
    Posts
    304
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default

    Niall: yes quite possibly a mixup. Dad was working without his diary that had been ruined in a flood so everything was from memory. Dad was operational on the night of October 6/7, 1944 on a raid to Dortmund. The route on this one was from Beachy Head to cross the French coast at Cayeux sur Mer, so considerably further south. They then traveled due east for 236 miles and crossed into Germany before turning northwards. The homeward route took them through Belgium. Dad recalled the event occurring over the North Sea.

    Yes. 45 miles E of Winterton would be no where near the bomber force, which would have been in the vicinity or past the Target Area by that time.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1O3...m_&usp=sharing

    Thanks Hugh and Peter.

    Jim
    Last edited by JDCAVE; 3rd March 2020 at 15:49.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lions Bay, BC
    Posts
    304
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default

    I've looked at the entry for F/L A.E. Marshall in Kenneth Wynn's Book on the Men of the Battle of Britain, and there is no mention of him being with No. 18 EFTS at Fairoaks. Dad clearly has a photo of two individuals he has identified as Nelles and Marshall in his photo album and the gentleman I take to be Marshall clearly has two ribbons on his tunic. I suppose it could be someone else, but I see no logical reason for dad to have misidentified this individual. It is also possible that Marshall could have visited Fairoaks, hence the photo, except again dad said "...Flying Officer Marshall, DFM, DFC, who had been with me at Fairoaks."

    I suppose that Fairoak was a bit of a backwater for formerly operational pilots, as compared to an OTU.

    Jim

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Lions Bay, BC
    Posts
    304
    Thanks
    2
    Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts

    Default

    Niall, John Williams. I have found the record for the claim of an HE.111 by Marshall, October 6, 1944. "Saw several "Chuffs" launched. Destroyed He.111."
    http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...mageViewerLink
    http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...mageViewerLink

    There is no record of their area of patrol. Any info would be helpful.

    Edit: I see that one of the units "Kampfgeschwader 53 'Legion Condor' - KG53" operated out of Bad Zwischenahn (or Varrelbusch?) in October 1944. That's fairly far north, so I wonder whether this claim would have occurred in the bomber stream, even on the return route from Dortmund on the night of October 6, 1944.

    Thanks!

    Jim
    Last edited by JDCAVE; 8th March 2020 at 17:32.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •