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Thread: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    As is often the case with requests for help we are never given all the details and it is difficult to know what information an inquirer has already archived, which often means contributors undertake considerable unnecessary research. In this instance we are not told the target on the night of 3/4 September, but asked (#7) "why did EE138 cut through Denmark". Unfortunately Airwar over Denmark ( http://www.flensted.eu.com/194300.shtml) gives very little advice in this respect.

    In fact the target was Berlin and the raid described in detail by Martin Middlebrook in The Berlin Raids. 460 Sqn was based at Binbrook, and the outbound leg was, unusually, almost direct from Binbrook, across Holland to Berlin. From there the bomber stream turned north, across the southwest tip of Sweden then along the Swedish coast until approximately 58.10N 11.22E before turning on a bearing of approximately 240 degrees towards England. On this course the bomber stream would have passed Fuglbjerg about 45 miles to the northwest.

    So it seems probable that EE138 was not cutting across Denmark, but perhaps was either a little off the planned course or forced off course during the combat with Lt Karl Rechberger.

    It was unusual for a planned course to be deliberately set across neutral (Swedish) airspace; in the event the Swedish flak was deliberately set to well below the bombers' flight level of 18000 ft, and after the leading aircraft had turned for home the searchlights at the turning point were directed to the west-southwest to direct the crews on the course to take.

    Brian

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyffe View Post
    As is often the case with requests for help we are never given all the details and it is difficult to know what information an inquirer has already archived, which often means contributors undertake considerable unnecessary research. In this instance we are not told the target on the night of 3/4 September, but asked (#7) "why did EE138 cut through Denmark". Unfortunately Airwar over Denmark ( http://www.flensted.eu.com/194300.shtml) gives very little advice in this respect.

    In fact the target was Berlin and the raid described in detail by Martin Middlebrook in The Berlin Raids. 460 Sqn was based at Binbrook, and the outbound leg was, unusually, almost direct from Binbrook, across Holland to Berlin. From there the bomber stream turned north, across the southwest tip of Sweden then along the Swedish coast until approximately 58.10N 11.22E before turning on a bearing of approximately 240 degrees towards England. On this course the bomber stream would have passed Fuglbjerg about 45 miles to the northwest.

    So it seems probable that EE138 was not cutting across Denmark, but perhaps was either a little off the planned course or forced off course during the combat with Lt Karl Rechberger.

    It was unusual for a planned course to be deliberately set across neutral (Swedish) airspace; in the event the Swedish flak was deliberately set to well below the bombers' flight level of 18000 ft, and after the leading aircraft had turned for home the searchlights at the turning point were directed to the west-southwest to direct the crews on the course to take.

    Brian
    Hello,

    Go to Post#5. Open link, then click on The Story - you will find a Route Map for the Berlin Raid on 3/4 September, 1943, and other information.

    Col.

    Col.

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    Hello,

    Re: my Post #10, and the subsequent movements of the three RAAF airmen after their arrival in Cape Town, on 3 October, 1942.

    All three airmen proceed to Transit Camp Retreat to await another convoy leaving Cape Town. They left T.C.Retreat on 19 October, 1942, proceeded to Cape Town and boarded the "Highland Brigade" for their on-going voyage to the UK. The "Highland Brigade" departed Cape Town on 20 October, 1942, in Convoy CF.7 (FREETOWN-LIVERPOOL) arriving at Freetown on 2 November. The vessel left Freetown on 4 November (in Convoy CF.7A [FREETOWN-LIVERPOOL]), and arrived safely at Belfast Lough on 16 November. The "Highland Brigade" departed Belfast Lough the same day and independently sailed for Avonmouth (UK), arriving on 18 November, 1942.

    Col
    Last edited by COL BRUGGY; 13th May 2020 at 04:25.

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    Quote Originally Posted by COL BRUGGY View Post
    Hello,

    Go to Post#5. Open link, then click on The Story - you will find a Route Map for the Berlin Raid on 3/4 September, 1943, and other information.

    Col.

    Col.
    Hi All,
    To clarify it was 1,5,3 and 8 Groups that were to proceed up the Swedish west coast before turning to home passing just north of Skagen which is on the northern tip of the Danish Jutland coast.
    6 Group proceeded along the Swedish coast but only to around 56.17N 12.27E before they headed NNW across Jutland to the west coast around Hanstholm which is about 67 miles (110km) north of the Stadil EE138 crash site. As per the raid tracks http://www.ee138.net/story.html
    Rechberger the night fighter pilot intercepted EE138 (from 1 Group) at an altitude of 4300m or 14100 feet, as an eye witness stated the two air craft approached the farm Fuglbjerg from the south at a great height from the direction of Ringkøbing which is 12 Km to the south and flew to the north before returning again a short time later with EE138 on fire. There are official documents from the Mid Jutland District kormmando that say V L. Knudsen reported, on September 4th1943 at 02:33 reported a telephone conversation from the Ulfborg Police Command Centre to the Ringkøbing Police Command Centre, which stated that residents telephoned the Police Command Centre it states “ . . .directed various inquiries by telephone to a Share of Residents that stretch from Ulfborg and southward from there. . . .", Ulfborg is 10km north of Stadil and is located 9km inland directly east of Husby which is 6km south east of the southernmost point of Nissum Fjord. All of this occurred a very long way from the path of the returning 6 Group.
    There is simple speculation that EE138 was short of fuel when it had been in the air for just 5.5 hours most 460 squadron aircraft were in the air that night for between 7:39 and 8:46 also there is speculation that EE138 was damaged however as mentioned earlier - 4300 meters, or 14100 feet, This altitude is close to the optimum performance altitude of a Lancaster, stated as being 3500 meters, so perhaps this point also questions and or dispels the notion that EE138 was damaged, i.e. having lost the use of one or two engines which would result in a Lancaster flying at a much lower altitude and speed.

    In the Bomber Command 1 Group September 3 Berlin operation briefing to 460 Squadron, the N.3. Tactics section provides orders to crews to cross the enemy coast between 18,000 & 22,000 feet (5500 - 6700meters) and to maintain this height to the target and then as far north as the German Baltic coast coordinates of 5435north /1331east, where aircraft could then reduce height for the remainder of the route but not to go below 10,000 feet (3000meters) east of 6 degrees east. (note this coordinate is 135km west across the North Sea from the Danish west coast).
    This would show that EE138 was complying operationally with the above order of not going below 10,000 feet.

    The question still remains why was EE138 where it was, why did it not cross the coast at Ringkøbing at first opportunity, I am not convinced on either the fuel or damaged aircraft suggestions. I think perhaps there is something else to it.

    Regards
    Peter F

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    Quote Originally Posted by COL BRUGGY View Post
    Hello,

    Re: my Post #10, and the subsequent movements of the three RAAF airmen after their arrival in Cape Town, on 3 October, 1942.

    All three airmen proceed to Transit Camp Retreat to await another convoy leaving Cape Town. They left T.C.Retreat on 19 October, 1942, proceeded to Cape Town and boarded the "Highland Brigade" for their on-going voyage to the UK. The "Highland Brigade" departed Cape Town on 20 October, 1942, in Convoy CF.7 (FREETOWN-LIVERPOOL) arriving at Freetown on 2 November. The vessel left Freetown on 4 November (in Convoy CF.7A [FREETOWN-LIVERPOOL]), and arrived safely at Belfast Lough on 16 November. The "Highland Brigade" departed Belfast Lough the same day and independently sailed for Avonmouth (UK), arriving on 18 November, 1942.

    Col
    Hi
    Below confirms some of what you have posted, I understood that they were held over in the Transit Camp due to heavy activity by the German U Boats, the ship they changed to (Highland Brigade) had been carrying oranges and the Westernland I think then carried on but was attacked by a U Boat.

    Monday, 24 August 1942 At Sea Embarked at Sydney SS Westernland SMF Service Records
    Sunday, 4 October 1942 South Africa (Cape Town ) R.A.F. Imperial Forces Transit Camp SMF Service Records
    Monday, 19 October 1942 South Africa (Cape Town ) Ceased Transit Camp SMF Service Records
    Wednesday, 18 November 1942 UK Disembarked UK posted to RAAF PRC SMF Service Records

    Regards
    Peter

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyffe View Post
    As is often the case with requests for help we are never given all the details and it is difficult to know what information an inquirer has already archived, which often means contributors undertake considerable unnecessary research. In this instance we are not told the target on the night of 3/4 September, but asked (#7) "why did EE138 cut through Denmark". Unfortunately Airwar over Denmark ( http://www.flensted.eu.com/194300.shtml) gives very little advice in this respect.

    In fact the target was Berlin and the raid described in detail by Martin Middlebrook in The Berlin Raids. 460 Sqn was based at Binbrook, and the outbound leg was, unusually, almost direct from Binbrook, across Holland to Berlin. From there the bomber stream turned north, across the southwest tip of Sweden then along the Swedish coast until approximately 58.10N 11.22E before turning on a bearing of approximately 240 degrees towards England. On this course the bomber stream would have passed Fuglbjerg about 45 miles to the northwest.

    So it seems probable that EE138 was not cutting across Denmark, but perhaps was either a little off the planned course or forced off course during the combat with Lt Karl Rechberger.

    It was unusual for a planned course to be deliberately set across neutral (Swedish) airspace; in the event the Swedish flak was deliberately set to well below the bombers' flight level of 18000 ft, and after the leading aircraft had turned for home the searchlights at the turning point were directed to the west-southwest to direct the crews on the course to take.

    Brian
    Hi All,
    To clarify it was 1,5,3 and 8 Groups that were to proceed up the Swedish west coast before turning to home passing just north of Skagen which is on the northern tip of the Danish Jutland coast.
    6 Group proceeded along the Swedish coast but only to around 56.17N 12.27E before they headed NNW across Jutland to the west coast around Hanstholm which is about 67 miles (110km) north of the Stadil EE138 crash site. As per the raid tracks http://www.ee138.net/story.html
    Rechberger the night fighter pilot intercepted EE138 (from 1 Group) at an altitude of 4300m or 14100 feet, as an eye witness stated the two air craft approached the farm Fuglbjerg from the south at a great height from the direction of Ringkøbing which is 12 Km to the south and flew to the north before returning again a short time later with EE138 on fire. There are official documents from the Mid Jutland District kormmando that say V L. Knudsen reported, on September 4th1943 at 02:33 reported a telephone conversation from the Ulfborg Police Command Centre to the Ringkøbing Police Command Centre, which stated that residents telephoned the Police Command Centre it states “ . . .directed various inquiries by telephone to a Share of Residents that stretch from Ulfborg and southward from there. . . .", Ulfborg is 10km north of Stadil and is located 9km inland directly east of Husby which is 6km south east of the southernmost point of Nissum Fjord. All of this occurred a very long way from the path of the returning 6 Group.
    There is simple speculation that EE138 was short of fuel when it had been in the air for just 5.5 hours most 460 squadron aircraft were in the air that night for between 7:39 and 8:46 also there is speculation that EE138 was damaged however as mentioned earlier - 4300 meters, or 14100 feet, This altitude is close to the optimum performance altitude of a Lancaster, stated as being 3500 meters, so perhaps this point also questions and or dispels the notion that EE138 was damaged, i.e. having lost the use of one or two engines which would result in a Lancaster flying at a much lower altitude and speed.

    In the Bomber Command 1 Group September 3 Berlin operation briefing to 460 Squadron, the N.3. Tactics section provides orders to crews to cross the enemy coast between 18,000 & 22,000 feet (5500 - 6700meters) and to maintain this height to the target and then as far north as the German Baltic coast coordinates of 5435north /1331east, where aircraft could then reduce height for the remainder of the route but not to go below 10,000 feet (3000meters) east of 6 degrees east. (note this coordinate is 135km west across the North Sea from the Danish west coast).
    This would show that EE138 was complying operationally with the above order of not going below 10,000 feet.

    The question still remains why was EE138 where it was, why did it not cross the coast at Ringkøbing at first opportunity, I am not convinced on either the fuel or damaged aircraft suggestions. I think perhaps there is something else to it.

    Regards
    Peter F

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyffe View Post
    As is often the case with requests for help we are never given all the details and it is difficult to know what information an inquirer has already archived, which often means contributors undertake considerable unnecessary research. In this instance we are not told the target on the night of 3/4 September, but asked (#7) "why did EE138 cut through Denmark". Unfortunately Airwar over Denmark ( http://www.flensted.eu.com/194300.shtml) gives very little advice in this respect.

    In fact the target was Berlin and the raid described in detail by Martin Middlebrook in The Berlin Raids. 460 Sqn was based at Binbrook, and the outbound leg was, unusually, almost direct from Binbrook, across Holland to Berlin. From there the bomber stream turned north, across the southwest tip of Sweden then along the Swedish coast until approximately 58.10N 11.22E before turning on a bearing of approximately 240 degrees towards England. On this course the bomber stream would have passed Fuglbjerg about 45 miles to the northwest.

    So it seems probable that EE138 was not cutting across Denmark, but perhaps was either a little off the planned course or forced off course during the combat with Lt Karl Rechberger.

    It was unusual for a planned course to be deliberately set across neutral (Swedish) airspace; in the event the Swedish flak was deliberately set to well below the bombers' flight level of 18000 ft, and after the leading aircraft had turned for home the searchlights at the turning point were directed to the west-southwest to direct the crews on the course to take.

    Brian
    Hi All,
    I will try posting this for the 3rd time, can any one please tell me the best way to contact this sites moderators besides the "Contact Us" link?

    To clarify it was 1,5,3 and 8 Groups that were to proceed up the Swedish west coast before turning to home passing just north of Skagen which is on the northern tip of the Danish Jutland coast.
    6 Group proceeded along the Swedish coast but only to around 56.17N 12.27E before they headed NNW across Jutland to the west coast around Hanstholm which is about 67 miles (110km) north of the Stadil EE138 crash site. As per the raid tracks http://www.ee138.net/story.html
    Rechberger the night fighter pilot intercepted EE138 (from 1 Group) at an altitude of 4300m or 14100 feet, as an eye witness stated the two air craft approached the farm Fuglbjerg from the south at a great height from the direction of Ringkøbing which is 12 Km to the south and flew to the north before returning again a short time later with EE138 on fire. There are official documents from the Mid Jutland District kormmando that say V L. Knudsen reported, on September 4th1943 at 02:33 reported a telephone conversation from the Ulfborg Police Command Centre to the Ringkøbing Police Command Centre, which stated that residents telephoned the Police Command Centre it states “ . . .directed various inquiries by telephone to a Share of Residents that stretch from Ulfborg and southward from there. . . .", Ulfborg is 10km north of Stadil and is located 9km inland directly east of Husby which is 6km south east of the southernmost point of Nissum Fjord. All of this occurred a very long way from the path of the returning 6 Group.
    There is simple speculation that EE138 was short of fuel when it had been in the air for just 5.5 hours most 460 squadron aircraft were in the air that night for between 7:39 and 8:46 also there is speculation that EE138 was damaged however as mentioned earlier - 4300 meters, or 14100 feet, This altitude is close to the optimum performance altitude of a Lancaster, stated as being 3500 meters, so perhaps this point also questions and or dispels the notion that EE138 was damaged, i.e. having lost the use of one or two engines which would result in a Lancaster flying at a much lower altitude and speed.

    In the Bomber Command 1 Group September 3 Berlin operation briefing to 460 Squadron, the N.3. Tactics section provides orders to crews to cross the enemy coast between 18,000 & 22,000 feet (5500 - 6700meters) and to maintain this height to the target and then as far north as the German Baltic coast coordinates of 5435north /1331east, where aircraft could then reduce height for the remainder of the route but not to go below 10,000 feet (3000meters) east of 6 degrees east. (note this coordinate is 135km west across the North Sea from the Danish west coast).
    This would show that EE138 was complying operationally with the above order of not going below 10,000 feet.

    The question still remains why was EE138 where it was, why did it not cross the coast at Ringkøbing at first opportunity, I am not convinced on either the fuel or damaged aircraft suggestions. I think perhaps there is something else to it.

    Regards
    Peter F

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyffe View Post
    As is often the case with requests for help we are never given all the details and it is difficult to know what information an inquirer has already archived, which often means contributors undertake considerable unnecessary research. In this instance we are not told the target on the night of 3/4 September, but asked (#7) "why did EE138 cut through Denmark". Unfortunately Airwar over Denmark ( http://www.flensted.eu.com/194300.shtml) gives very little advice in this respect.

    In fact the target was Berlin and the raid described in detail by Martin Middlebrook in The Berlin Raids. 460 Sqn was based at Binbrook, and the outbound leg was, unusually, almost direct from Binbrook, across Holland to Berlin. From there the bomber stream turned north, across the southwest tip of Sweden then along the Swedish coast until approximately 58.10N 11.22E before turning on a bearing of approximately 240 degrees towards England. On this course the bomber stream would have passed Fuglbjerg about 45 miles to the northwest.

    So it seems probable that EE138 was not cutting across Denmark, but perhaps was either a little off the planned course or forced off course during the combat with Lt Karl Rechberger.

    It was unusual for a planned course to be deliberately set across neutral (Swedish) airspace; in the event the Swedish flak was deliberately set to well below the bombers' flight level of 18000 ft, and after the leading aircraft had turned for home the searchlights at the turning point were directed to the west-southwest to direct the crews on the course to take.

    Brian
    Hi All,
    Again I have tried to post this for the past couple of days, I get a message that says my post will not be visible until it has been moderated, Yeat I have tried contacting the Mods but no response.
    So I will post in two parts just in case it was too large. here goes!!
    PART 1

    To clarify it was 1,5,3 and 8 Groups that were to proceed up the Swedish west coast before turning to home passing just north of Skagen which is on the northern tip of the Danish Jutland coast.
    6 Group proceeded along the Swedish coast but only to around 56.17N 12.27E before they headed NNW across Jutland to the west coast around Hanstholm which is about 67 miles (110km) north of the Stadil EE138 crash site. As per the raid tracks http://www.ee138.net/story.html
    Rechberger the night fighter pilot intercepted EE138 (from 1 Group) at an altitude of 4300m or 14100 feet, as an eye witness stated the two air craft approached the farm Fuglbjerg from the south at a great height from the direction of Ringkøbing which is 12 Km to the south and flew to the north before returning again a short time later with EE138 on fire. There are official documents from the Mid Jutland District kormmando that say V L. Knudsen reported, on September 4th1943 at 02:33 reported a telephone conversation from the Ulfborg Police Command Centre to the Ringkøbing Police Command Centre, which stated that residents telephoned the Police Command Centre it states “ . . .directed various inquiries by telephone to a Share of Residents that stretch from Ulfborg and southward from there. . . .", Ulfborg is 10km north of Stadil and is located 9km inland directly east of Husby which is 6km south east of the southernmost point of Nissum Fjord. All of this occurred a very long way from the path of the returning 6 Group.

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    Hi All,
    I am trying to get this posted for the past 2 days it says my post won't be visible until it has been moderated, I have sent messages to the "Contact Us" but no reply

    To clarify it was 1,5,3 and 8 Groups that were to proceed up the Swedish west coast before turning to home passing just north of Skagen which is on the northern tip of the Danish Jutland coast.
    6 Group proceeded along the Swedish coast but only to around 56.17N 12.27E before they headed NNW across Jutland to the west coast around Hanstholm which is about 67 miles (110km) north of the Stadil EE138 crash site. As per the raid tracks http://www.ee138.net/story.html
    Rechberger the night fighter pilot intercepted EE138 (from 1 Group) at an altitude of 4300m or 14100 feet, as an eye witness stated the two air craft approached the farm Fuglbjerg from the south at a great height from the direction of Ringkøbing which is 12 Km to the south and flew to the north before returning again a short time later with EE138 on fire. There are official documents from the Mid Jutland District kormmando that say V L. Knudsen reported, on September 4th1943 at 02:33 reported a telephone conversation from the Ulfborg Police Command Centre to the Ringkøbing Police Command Centre, which stated that residents telephoned the Police Command Centre it states “ . . .directed various inquiries by telephone to a Share of Residents that stretch from Ulfborg and southward from there. . . .", Ulfborg is 10km north of Stadil and is located 9km inland directly east of Husby which is 6km south east of the southernmost point of Nissum Fjord. All of this occurred a very long way from the path of the returning 6 Group.
    There is simple speculation that EE138 was short of fuel when it had been in the air for just 5.5 hours most 460 squadron aircraft were in the air that night for between 7:39 and 8:46 also there is speculation that EE138 was damaged however as mentioned earlier - 4300 meters, or 14100 feet, This altitude is close to the optimum performance altitude of a Lancaster, stated as being 3500 meters, so perhaps this point also questions and or dispels the notion that EE138 was damaged, i.e. having lost the use of one or two engines which would result in a Lancaster flying at a much lower altitude and speed.

    In the Bomber Command 1 Group September 3 Berlin operation briefing to 460 Squadron, the N.3. Tactics section provides orders to crews to cross the enemy coast between 18,000 & 22,000 feet (5500 - 6700meters) and to maintain this height to the target and then as far north as the German Baltic coast coordinates of 5435north /1331east, where aircraft could then reduce height for the remainder of the route but not to go below 10,000 feet (3000meters) east of 6 degrees east. (note this coordinate is 135km west across the North Sea from the Danish west coast).
    This would show that EE138 was complying operationally with the above order of not going below 10,000 feet.

    The question still remains why was EE138 where it was, why did it not cross the coast at Ringkøbing at first opportunity, I am not convinced on either the fuel or damaged aircraft suggestions. I think perhaps there is something else to it.

    Regards
    Peter F

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    Default Re: Warrant Officer Ewin Carthew RAAF 460th Squadron, Navigator on Lancaster EE138

    Can any one put me incontact with a moderator of this site, I have tried the "Contact us" but no reply. Thanks in advance.
    Cheers
    Peter F

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