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Thread: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

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    Default Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    Dear all,

    I am seeking photographic reference for a 165 Squadron Spitfire, ML175, SK-P circa 5 July 1944. From photos of other 165 Squadron Spits, it is evident that most utilised a nickname and or personal emblem. Hopefully a photo exists which can confirm.

    Failing a photo of the SK-P, in Osprey's V1 Flying Bomb Aces, by Andrew Thomas, there is a colour plate of SK-A circa 16 July 1944, showing invasion stripes. Would SK-P have been marked very similarly to SK-A circa the same period?

    Thank you very much for any help in this regard.

    Mitchell

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    Default Re: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    OK, I have found three different profile drawings of SK-A so, one would think (hope) that a photo would exist of the aircraft?

    I did find one photo of Flt Lt G. Armstrong's Mk IX which on the 01.07.1944 was damaged/burnt by the explosion from his V1 victim. It had full invasion stripes on that date, so I suspect that SK-P would have had them four days later on 05.07.1944.

    Any help is appreciated.

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    Default Re: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    Hi Mitchell,

    165 operated from Predannack on 6th June and whilst ML175 did not fly that day (Aircraft for the Many..MJF Bowyer) it would presumably have been fully painted up. Officially orders for removal of upper surface stripes didn't come until 19/8 to commence on the 25th. However AEAF issued order on 6th July to remove upper stripes as necessary: especially those on french airfields. (Well explained in Chris Shores 2nd TAF volume 4). So this is the day after you want, and also ML175 was still UK based as part of 150 Wing ADGB so ML175 "probably" wore full stripes on 5th July?

    This is backed up by the photo of Flt Lt Armstrong s Spit you mention. However you've probably noticed this photo raises another problem........under the singe, very narrow stripes!
    These are similar to the well published photos of FVII Spits of Pete Brothers Culmhead Wing. Full colour drawings in Late Mark Spitfire Aces by Osprey.
    Chris Shore in 2nd TAF vol 4 mentions these narrow stripes were seen on 124 and 131 HFVII and 64 IX all ADGB units. The only question is when did ADGB start painting on the narrow stripes? They mostly look very professionally done unlike the normal AEAF "roller" applications. The photo of Armstrongs aircraft is dated 1st July so before your date, so it seems there is some evidence that ML175 would also have had the immaculate narrow stripes on all surfaces? I await shooting down !
    cheers
    Peter

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    Default Re: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    Hi Peter,

    Thank you very much for your reply. Yes, the image in question is SUK13042 from the Australian War Memorial Archive which can be seen here. It is a shame the identity of the aircraft cannot be seen.

    According to the 165 Squadron ORB ML175 (SK-P) was as follows:


    • 01.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 02.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 12.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O G. P. Armstrong
    • 12.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 13.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 14.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 14.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, P/O A. Scott
    • 15.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 15.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O G. P. Armstrong
    • 17.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 17.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, Lt. Foote (FAA)
    • 18.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, Lt. Foote (FAA)
    • 18.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, Lt. Foote (FAA)
    • 20.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 27.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 27.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O T. D. Tinsey (DFC)
    • 28.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 28.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O C. M. Lawson
    • 28.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O T. D. Tinsey (DFC)
    • 29.06.1944 - ML175, SK-P, F/O T. D. Tinsey (DFC)



    Then presumably, F/O T. D. Tinsey (DFC) flew ML175, SK-P on 05.07.1940 from Detling "who, having used up all his ammunition, tipped the Diver over with his own wing tip."

    The incident is seen here in gun camera footage, IWM Combat Film No. 6981, F. O. Tinsey, 165 Sqn, (from 57:37).

    Is there any proof that Tinsey was flying ML175, SK+P on the wing tipping 5 July incident?

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    Default Re: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    Armstrong's aircraft on the singe incident 5.7 was MJ221 SK-J....source Diver! by Brian Cull.

    Brian Cull also has the wing tipping incident with Tinsey as being ML175 SK-P...page144 with quotes from Tinsey.
    Peter

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    Default Re: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    Peter, thank you for clearing that up.

    I've so far found several profiles and decal sets for the Presentation Spitfire ML242, SK-A, "TIMES OF CEYLON", but I cannot find a photo anywhere. Does Brian Cull's Diver, Diver Diver have one or do you know of where best to look?

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    There is one in Air Britain Gifts of War page 307.
    IWM photos CH13354 - CH13356 and CH13362

    Peter

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    Default Re: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    Peter,

    Thank you very much for your help. It is very much appreciated!

    Regards,

    Mitchell

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    Default Re: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    Sorry Peter, but does the Air Britain, Gifts of War book have one of the IWM photos in it, or is it a different photo to the three IWM photos?

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    Default Re: Spitfire, ML175, SK-P on 05/07/1944

    Yes it is an IWM picture in gifts of War...sorry away til tomorrow so don t know which number but it shows a 3/4 rear picture of the cockpit and wing root with the name central.

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