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Thread: 213 Sqn question

  1. #1
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    Default 213 Sqn question

    Hello,

    Have been going through the FCL vol 1 editions.
    I see that on May 20th 1940 ,P/O. W M SIZER is noted as SI/WIA. Crash landed near LA Panne after combat with Me109's.
    From the ORB in Air27/1315/13 and 14 there is as far as I could see no mention of this crash landing, or of the pilot being SI/WIA.
    That said he had a busy day it would seem.
    20/5/40
    Pilot Sizer.
    0555 - 0655 - P2802 in combat but no mention of crash.
    0820 - 0845 - L1854 group of five - no e/a sighted.
    1020 - 1100 - P2673 group of four a/c, no details.
    1215 - 1250 - P2795 individual flights, no other info.
    1830 - 1940 - L1854 - France to Northolt.
    2000 - 2030 - P3424 - Northolt to Whittering.


    AB book "P1000-R9999" does not have P2795 with 213, only "32/310/255/55otu"

    So which a/c was he with in the 20/5/40 crash landing ?
    Thanks
    Alex
    Last edited by Alex Smart; 11th August 2020 at 16:06.

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    Default Re: 213 Sqn question

    Hi Alex,
    unfortunately I have nothing definitive but few thoughts.

    One little correction:
    1215 - 1250 - P2795 individual flights, no other info. - according to the Air27/1315/14 there is "Patrol" next to his name.

    I suppose you have seen already this:

    http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Sizer.htm

    While searching the TNA I came across:

    AIR 50/83/15
    Description:
    Name: Sizer
    Rank: Pilot Officer
    Squadron: 213
    Other Dates of Combat: 19 May 1940; 20 May 1940, 28 May 1940

    You can download them - there are two of them dated 20.5.40 but no mention of any injury, crash landing etc.

    But I have found also this:
    AIR 81/700
    Pilot Officer W M Sizer: injured; Hurricane P3424 in air operations over Dunkirk, France, 31 May 1940

    So the question is - does he has two similar cases of crash landing on 20.5. and 31.5. and the first one is not recorded fro some reason? Or there was only one which is incorrectly dated?

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Default Re: 213 Sqn question

    Alex, moreover looking at those Hurricanes on 20.5.:
    P2802 - lost on 12.8.40
    L1854 - not possible to crash land in France if returned to the UK the same evening...
    P2673 - lost on 1.9.40
    P2795 - seems to be not with the unit at all
    P3424 - lost on 31.5.40

    Type: Hawker Hurricane Mk I
    Serial number: P3424, AK-P
    Operation: Dunkirk Patrol
    Lost: 31/05/1940
    P/O W.M. Sizer - safe
    Set alight in combat with Bf109s of III./JG26 and crash-landed south of Dunkirk at 14.40 hrs.
    http://www.epibreren.com/ww2/raf/213_squadron.html

    Pavel
    Last edited by CZ_RAF; 12th August 2020 at 07:43.
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
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    Default Re: 213 Sqn question

    FCL 1 is OK but it all needs to now be looked through the prism of what comes later, including BoFTaN and the Air 81 files

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    Default Re: 213 Sqn question

    Paul I fully agree with you! And for the BoB I will also mention AIR 50 Combat Reports.
    If Alex would not mind and I would like to use his thread for one my question:
    As you have BoBTaN may I ask how many editions has been published? Which one is the latest? I have one quite old and I would like to ask if anyone would be willing to check few cases from Aug-Sep 1940 for me in the latest edition if they are the same or updated.

    TIA

    Pavel

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Default Re: 213 Sqn question

    Pavel I mentioned Battle of France then and now - there has only been one version kind Regards Paul

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    Default Re: 213 Sqn question

    Soory Paul, my oversight.

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

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    Default Re: 213 Sqn question

    Thank you all for the constructive replies.
    I got the times and a/c serial numbers from the ORB .
    In most cases the serial number is listed but without the letter.

    i.e = 2802; 1854; 2795; 3424.

    This was easy to find as the serials could only have been in the early Hurricane range.

    And yes some were actually lost later in the month.

    Would the combat report note that the reported had himself crash landed or shot down ?

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    Default Re: 213 Sqn question

    Alex,
    I have seen some of them where the pilot bale out and there were details about it or a note when he landed at other airfield than base to refuel.
    They may vary depending on squadron/author - like as ORBs are different some more detailed, some less.
    But my opinion is that when shot down in dogfight in which he may claimed some enemy his crash landing should be mentioned there.

    Pavel
    Czechoslovak Airmen in the RAF 1940-1945
    http://cz-raf.webnode.cz

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to CZ_RAF For This Useful Post:

    Alex Smart (13th August 2020)

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    Default Re: 213 Sqn question

    Today I looked at "Aces High" vols 1 & 2 for Sizer.
    It reveals that -

    Vol 1 page 549
    On the 20th
    On the final patrol before the unit was to return to England he was attacked and shot down by 5 Bf109's, suffering facial wounds.Coming down 2 miles outside LA Panne, he swam a canal to reach friendly territory, had his wounds dressed and got back to England to rejoin the unit.
    Claim 1fith Do17 over Audenarde-Tournai.

    Vol 2 page 174
    On the 20th
    1 quarter ( not 1 third) Do17 (d) - Hurricane I - P2802 - Courtrai
    1 fith He 126 (e) - Hurricane I - P2673 - nr Neville.
    (d) = A Do215B of 3(F)/ObdL, flown by Uffz. Erich Luther.
    (e) = Aircraft of 2(H)/23Pz.

    So it would seem that he was in P2673 when shot down on the 20th.

    On the 31st he was again shot down, crash landing south of the evacuation port and subsequently returning aboard ship that afternoon.
    This a/c was "P" ,P3424 ( FCL ) but it seems another "P" was P2673 ?

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