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Thread: ATC casualties WW2

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    Default ATC casualties WW2

    Air Training Corps casualties WW2
    Further to the death of F/Lt FL Jones 78 Sqn ATC, while working on my note there, some other points of possible ATC interest arose.

    Firstly, searching the current CWGC casualty db on
    Regiment "Air Training Corps"
    finds only the Cadet casualties (fairly naturally, on further thought), not any of their RAFVR (T) Officers.

    The Cadet results themselves give cause for quiet contemplation.
    The CWGC record shows that 55 cadets died while serving in the ATC in WW2.
    All non-combatant volunteer cadets in a non-operational youth training scheme.
    Of the 55 cadets, age at death was given for 48. They ranged from 14 years to 19 years.

    The youngest lad, Cadet Peter Bond of Chapel-en-le-Frith, was fourteen when he died with two of his 1180 Squadron ATC mates (Cadet DJ Fox and Cadet 1st Cl EL Hall) on 8 Sep 1943.
    They lie in a collective grave at Chapel-en-le-Frith (St Thomas A'Becket Churchyard). There seems to be no other past or current trace of 1180 Squadron ATC.

    Cadets in war-time did have the chance of flying in RAF aircraft for (non-operational) air experience and in this case, Malcolm Barrass' fine Air Of Authority www.rafweb.org site members area casualty listing* fills in some details. The three lads were killed
    "whilst flying in Lancaster III, JB153 PM-D of No 103 Sqn, which dived into the ground near Wymeswold during an air test."
    The six crew (4 RAFVR and 2 RAAF) also died in the crash and are recorded of course by the CWGC, in the RAF Web/Air of Authority rolls and elsewhere.

    As for adult ATC officers of the RAFVR (Training Branch), like F/Lt FL Jones 61672, there seems to me no simple way to identify them collectively from the CWGC, as past and present CWGC db entry (on the evidence of Jones) looks likely to record them baldly as eg "78 Squadron", their ATC status only apparent from the Graves Registration images. No combination of Regiment/Service/Secondary Regt /Sqn no seems able to find any of the ATC RAFVR (Training Branch) officers. In the Air Of Authority roll entries, a page Find on "ATC" can make things clearer, eg there are 2 such, incl Jones, in late March 1942 alone - both of natural causes. There it might be possible, with some labour, to extract an ATC RAFVR (Training Branch) casualty roll. Malcolm's rolls are presented in short spans of dates, making for a good many pages: altogether a commendable compilation.

    Here, in the collective http://www.rafcommands.com/database/wardead/ summary (thanks to Jagan) Jones eg appears once again as "78 Sqn", while the inclusion of links to all Forum posts shows the ATC connection.
    No apparent way of searching either ATC Cadets (no hits on known names) or the ATC RAFVR(T) Officers in the db.
    However, the posts links also did unearth, via the 103 Sqn incident, an earlier 2012 thread on Youngest BC losses which included this from John Larder on overall ATC losses:
    "I have 63 ATC deaths 1942-1947. 61 on CWGC. 2 killed on Hampden AT113 of 408 Sq aged 16, 3 on Lancaster JB153 of 103 Sq. ages 14 & 17(2), both losses on an air test. Only one loss due to enemy acction when a lorry was shot up by a Me110"
    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...casualty/page2
    Whether that count relates only to Cadets is not remarked. A count of 63 in 2012 (vs 55 Cadets from simple CWGC search in 2020) is worth noting and perhaps exploring.

    Anyway, a sombre thread in the great fabric of war-time life: a small recognition of the service of ATC Cadets and their RAFVR (T) Officers in war-time.
    Whether it might be possible to draw together a complete Roll of ATC Cadet and Officer WW2 deaths cannot say, surely deserved.

    *Footnote:
    Air of Authority Sources note for 1940-1949 casualties
    "The information in these pages has been gleaned from a variety of sources including the Commonwealth War Graves registers, Bomber Command Losses (Chorley), Fighter Command Losses (Franks), Coastal Command Losses (McNeil), 'They Shall Grow Not Old' (Allison), 'For Your Tomorrow' (Martyn), RAAF listings on the AWM (Storr), 'Price of Peace', 'Final Landings' and 'Though Without Anger' (Cummings), the series on the 2nd Tactical Air Force (Shores and Thomas) and the Air-Britain series on RAF aircraft serial numbers. In the course of my research from these sources, a number of errors were found and have been amended in these listings. I have also referred to Unsung Heroes of the RAF - The Far East POWs (Stubbs) and Footprints on the Sands of Time (Clutton-Brock) to identify many of those who died in captivity. I am also indebted to members of the RAF Commands Forum, especially the lat Henk Welting for their assistance. These listings do not show those injured or aircraft lost without casualties and are not a replacement for the excellent publications and sources mentioned above. I am also indebted to Peter Moran for providing details of casualties linked to Blackpool."
    Last edited by Don Clark; 2nd September 2020 at 02:36.
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    Default Re: ATC casualties WW2

    Hi Don,

    Agree with you that the ATC deaths should be part of the CWGC Database I can work on importing the data. CWGC gives me 55 records. What about the additional 8?

    I am assuming that the ATC RAFVR(T) officers are already present in the current database. But if there is a way to mark the unit, we can use that too.

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    Default Re: ATC casualties WW2

    Count variations: Agree CWGC in 2020 finds 55 cases, all 1942-1947 by searching on
    Regiment: Air Training Corps
    Not the OP "63 ATC deaths 1942-1947. 61 on CWGC".

    Variant searches eg ATC, Air Training in this and in other fields (Secondary Regt) found no other cases, and none before 1942. Likewise search on Air Defence Corps or ADC or Air Defence found nil cases. Unable to account for or suggest further means of reconciling.

    As for RAFVR (Training Branch) RAFVR (T) officers, indeed in the db here though not immediately visible to eg summarise.
    Perhaps the underlying db to Macolm's commendable summary tables x date may find them all, either by Branch, or by the ATC abbreviation in the remarks column?

    For example, in the end Mar 42 set as recorded, Find ATC shows

    F/Lt Jones 61672 No 78 Sqn ATC
    Fg Off RJ Kirkwood 63692 No 164 ATC Sqn

    The RAF Web/Air of Authority casualty rolls, commendable as they are, are shown as datewise slices, dictated perhaps by display convenience and fair enough: unfortunately makes any end to end Find ATC winnowing difficult. Hence suggest enquire of MB re underlying db access/search.

    Thanks for thinking about this addnl work, Jagan.
    Last edited by Don Clark; 2nd September 2020 at 22:25.
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    Default Re: ATC casualties WW2

    Hi Don,
    Not sure if this is of help to you, but my area of research is RAF Carew Cheriton. Over the years I have been told of ATC casualties at the airfield, however, the only one that I have found is Pilot Officer H.G. Price who was killed 3/9/1944 when two Oxford aircraft collided. He was a passenger on X6813 and was taken to his home city of Newport Gwent for burial; P/O. Price was aged 42.
    Regards
    Deric.

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    Default Re: ATC casualties WW2

    Thanks for that, however, Plt Off Herbert Glyn Price 122836 was killed on 3 Sep 1943.
    https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/fi...0GLYN%20PRICE/

    He's in the cwgc/aircraft/personnel db here at RAF Commands re Oxford X6813 which resulted in five deaths, in collision with V3976 (one death) although who was in which aircraft is not apparently wholly clear.
    Also recorded in Air of Authority/RAF Web 1943 cas listing.

    As an indication of the likely difficulty of compiling the ATC RAFVR officers, the existing entries record him as RAF. The only indications of his ATC attachment are
    again the Graves Reg Form image (he was posted to ATC HQ Wales) and
    the Sched A Headstone ref which notes him first as Air Training Corps, crossed out to RAF (VR) and annotated for amendment to RAF (VR) on replacement...the CWGC entry still records him as RAF
    The CWGC, RAF Cmds and Air of Authority dbs make no mention of ATC - although the db here now shows it peripherally, as the automated links find these posts (a valuable feat, Jagan).

    Lastly, thanks again for the interest, however, I'm not in a position to attempt an ATC Cadet/ATC Officer (& ADC?) losses roll myself.
    If it can be done, and by IT feat, so much the better.

    Teenage cadets as young as 14 dying in uniform while venturing adventure and in war-time are deserving of some commemoration, as are their in the main non-combatant officers.
    Last edited by Don Clark; 2nd September 2020 at 23:34. Reason: CWGC imagery
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    Default Re: ATC casualties WW2

    Hi All

    The problem here is that there is no such thing as an ATC Officer unless they are Air Traffic Controllers.

    ATC personnel consist of Cadets, Civilian Instructors and Adult Warrant Officers (also Adult SNCOs in more recent years).

    RAFVR(T) personnel are part of the RAFVR so are listed as such in the AFLs.

    As newly commissioned pilot officers, the first thing we were told at the Air Cadet Training Centre was "You are in the RAF not the ATC so demand the same courtesies from all ranks of the service"

    Hence why it will be difficult to separate RAFVR(T) from RAFVR officers.

    Malcolm

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to malcolm_raf For This Useful Post:

    Don Clark (17th September 2020)

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  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Jagan For This Useful Post:

    Don Clark (3rd September 2020)

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    Default Re: ATC casualties WW2

    Hi Don,
    Thanks for your reply; crew details of those who were killed: Oxford X6813 - Sgt. A.C. Taylor, Sgt. K.J. May, P/O. H.G. Price.
    Oxford V3976 - F/S. F. Leslie, Sgt. G.A. Wareham, Sgt. W. J. Louden.
    The aircraft were flying with No. 10 Radio School at RAF Carew Cheriton.
    Regards
    Deric.

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    Default Re: ATC casualties WW2

    Jon Heyworth helped with causes of death for ATC casualities

    Please take a look
    http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...ame=&serialno=

    Only two are now left. http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...hp?qnum=124385 and http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...hp?qnum=124353

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    Default Re: ATC casualties WW2

    Horizons: The History of the Air Cadets

    4th April: Leslie Shearwood of 16 (Middlesex) was flying in an Oxford which struck a tree and crashed near Steeple Claydon station.
    All were killed -> Oxford I R6148 note date 5/4/1944


    http://www.rafcommands.com/database/....php?qnum=5674

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