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Thread: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

  1. #61
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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyffe View Post
    What information would a Wireless Operator record in his log? I suppose the same question applies to the Navigator. Should anyone have a copy of either type of log I'd be grateful for the sight of a page. Just thinking outside the box at the moment.

    Brian
    By Afterlift,
    Brian, If the aircraft Capt had directed a deliberat alteration of heading you would expect that to be in Nav's log. If Capt had directed an emergency or distress call you would expect that in W.op's log. But the ansence of either or both records does not enable a conclusion that actions had not been directed or had not occurred. If some sort of emergency or deficiency had occurred the second challenge of the Capt after continuing to fly the aircraft would be to implement remedial actions perhaps in consultation with Engineer (and other crew if needs be) then sort out possibly amended nav plan and what he wished to tell the world about his problem. Time permitting and at 0200 when circadians are at their lowest.
    Regards
    cris
    Last edited by afterlift; 5th November 2020 at 21:10. Reason: To restore lost text

  2. #62
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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    I suspect you are making assumptions Chris. I believe, but don't know (hence my query) that a navigator's log would routinely include details such as track, height, position etc. A wireless operator's role was largely a listening brief as flights were subject to radio silence except in emergency (https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/whos-...af-bomber-crew), but I'm pretty sure he would log the broadcasts/messages he received.

    In this instance the logs must have survived since the COI notes the Nav's log was completed at 0203 hours (11 minutes before the crash), while the WOp's log was completed at 02.10 hours, 4 minutes before impact. If my interpretation of the Nav's role is correct that information would help determine why the aircraft was probably off-track and what his earlier errors had been. That seems to me an important element in determining the cause of the accident, but appears not to have been considered apart from cryptic comments.

    Brian

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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyffe View Post
    I suspect you are making assumptions Chris. I believe, but don't know (hence my query) that a navigator's log would routinely include details such as track, height, position etc. A wireless operator's role was largely a listening brief as flights were subject to radio silence except in emergency (https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/whos-...af-bomber-crew), but I'm pretty sure he would log the broadcasts/messages he received.

    In this instance the logs must have survived since the COI notes the Nav's log was completed at 0203 hours (11 minutes before the crash), while the WOp's log was completed at 02.10 hours, 4 minutes before impact. If my interpretation of the Nav's role is correct that information would help determine why the aircraft was probably off-track and what his earlier errors had been. That seems to me an important element in determining the cause of the accident, but appears not to have been considered apart from cryptic comments.

    Brian
    By afterlift
    Brian I have had two attempts at responding with chapter and verse from RAF record but both have been apparently wiped for some reason. I will therefore make this third attempt brief. I have not made any assumptions. I have attempted to answer your questions with informed propositions supported by the RAF record re the absence of Nav record covering final heading of MZ311 and absence of record in W.Op log re final transmission. I do not understand the reason for your observation that aircraft was probably off track unless you are referring to intended and recorded intent to make Pershore. Similarly your reference to "earlier errors" does not appear to be substantiated.
    Regards
    cris

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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cawsey View Post
    The centre of the likely area would be around 1 56' 20''N / 2 01' 20''W, or SO986267.
    Richard, Current best estimate from witnesses is Ben's Tump. So your estimate seems close. (I presume you intended LAT 51d56m20s.). The position of that feature from OS map online approximate LAT 51d 56m 21.65s LONG 2d 01m 32.57s and from different app "B" of Ben's Tump is SO G.Ref 98316 26719. Precise crash location still to be determined.
    Regards
    crisg

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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Re #60 querying Navigators and Wireless Operators logs, there is an example of the former at:
    https://www.historicflyingclothing.c...0#.X7AV58j7Q2w.

    Brian

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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Brian,
    Thanks. Re Inquiry'e observation that there was no record in Nav's and WOP's logs explaining or noting aircraft descent and turn both of which board recorded had evidently occurred would support a finding (which the board did not make) that both crew member's were not aware of the loss of height or change in heading. Although RAF Form 412 (Inquiry Report) sub paragraph 10b does not make this completely clear. ACDRE Slatterly's comment of 30SEP44 is relevant There are other possibilities but speculation without some evidence is not helpful.
    Regards
    cris
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyffe View Post
    Re #60 querying Navigators and Wireless Operators logs, there is an example of the former at:
    https://www.historicflyingclothing.c...0#.X7AV58j7Q2w.

    Brian

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