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Thread: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

  1. #21
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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyffe View Post
    Cris, my #12 was in error in respect of the lack of reference to quarries; having brought up the map for Cleeve Hill as I indicated I should have zoomed down one level. That identifies quite a lot of quarries on the hill, including the one you have identified, and another just to the southwest. If you go down to Street View level on Google Earth Pro you can actually follow the western track from the Quarry Car Park to 'your' quarry.

    Even better if you use the Historical Imagery icon there is an aerial image of the area for 1945. Both quarries are clearly visible, with gorse about 130 yards bearing 240 deg from the southwest quarry, and some about 350 yards bearing 030 deg from your quarry. Other than these two areas of gorse there was very little vegetation on the hill.

    Brian
    Brian,
    That is an excellent suggestion. I have not used that feature of G.Earth.
    Regards
    cris

  2. #22
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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    I had started another thread, connected to this one as there is a reference in the various reports etc related to this crash which makes reference to a location ov P4447 or VP4447, which it transpires is a four figure grid reference which then via a website https://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-translation.php comes up with a modern Lat and Long which when you put it into google maps gives you the edge of the quarry on Cleeve Hill.

    Regards
    Daz

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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Thanks Daz, That puts the site 685 metres just north of due east from Cleeve hill summit. The position satisfies the quarry and gorse bush elements described by the local witness. Are you able to give me a source for that position please?
    Regards
    cris

  4. #24
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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Quote Originally Posted by afterlift View Post
    Thanks Daz, That puts the site 685 metres just north of due east from Cleeve hill summit. The position satisfies the quarry and gorse bush elements described by the local witness. Are you able to give me a source for that position please?
    Regards
    cris
    Cris,

    the original lat/long comes from page 2 of the RAF Form 412 Proceedings of a Court of Inquiry. The reference to VP4447 comes from Form 765 (C) Report on Flying Accident or Forced Landing not attributable to Enemy action, the final reference is from the Accident Card A.M. Form 1180 which gives "Map Ref P4447" as the location of the crash.

    Regards
    Daz
    Last edited by 78SqnHistory; 4th October 2020 at 10:59. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Daz, Thank you. I will pass that information along to the local historians.
    Regards
    cris

    Quote Originally Posted by 78SqnHistory View Post
    Cris,

    the original lat/long comes from page 2 of the RAF Form 412 Proceedings of a Court of Inquiry. The reference to VP4447 comes from Form 765 (C) Report on Flying Accident or Forced Landing not attributable to Enemy action, the final reference is from the Accident Card A.M. Form 1180 which gives "Map Ref P4447" as the location of the crash.

    Regards
    Daz

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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    The British Cassini Grid reference vP4447 covers a 1 km square, so can't be used to give an accurate position on the hill. . .

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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Richard,

    you are correct, it can't on its own thats why I've used a combination of the origin lat and long provided from the accident investigation report and the reference to the 4 figure grid reference vp 44 47 and numerous other references to Cleeve Hill in various records relating to this crash and the use of modern technology to convert the location into something which helps us to identify the crash location.

    regards
    Daz

  8. #28
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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Thanks for publishing that, Richard. I could not see how that exact reference VP4447 (51d.56m.11s; 02d.00m.42s) could be the location of the accident as it was at a height of 257 m (843 ft) asl on the downslope from the ridge of Cleeve Hill which reaches over 300 m (985 ft) asl (max 330 m (1082 ft)). Assuming the aircraft's track was about 020 deg, MZ311 would have crashed on the western upslope.

    I calculate the NW corner of the 1 km square (VP4447) is at 51d.56m.26s. N; 02d.01m.05s W (or bearing 024 deg 155 m (510 yds) from the centre of the circular quarry identified by Cris, and very close to the clump of gorse.) Thus the accident was probably in the extreme northwest corner of the square and would be consistent with the witness descriptions given by Chris in #13.

    Brian
    Last edited by Lyffe; 4th October 2020 at 20:54. Reason: Change spelling from 'hell' to 'hill'

  9. #29
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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Daz,

    Reference your #24 this morning, do the documents make any reference to the altimeter settings. Since there was no fire I'm assuming the instruments remained intact.

    Brian
    Last edited by Lyffe; 4th October 2020 at 21:04.

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    Default Re: 78 SQN RAF Loss of Halifax III MZ311 on Cleeve Hill Gloucecstershire 26 AUG 44

    Brian,
    I am hampered by distance and lack of knowledge how that grid system works but by my plot of that VP4447 position it puts the location on the rising slope of the ridge given that MZ was tracking about NNE ( and if his track was to the east of the summit). It is also on or close to the lip of the quarry ivo of what looks to be gorse. Not arguing with your analysis but that position might usefully be considered as one of two or three datums including yours which consider both RAF and witnesses- although it is a bit difficult to see how the VP4447 posn could be seen as "between golf club and Rising Sun Hotel". Still, it was a while ago!
    Regards
    cris

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