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Thread: Colour WWII photos

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    Trust me, I have seen scans from original slides, and the quality was just unbelieveable!
    Eg. I have seen a scan of another shot from the series, with the pilots still standing in front of the Spitfire. One of the pilots had a cigarette pack in hand.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/827078...7605269786717/
    It has been taken on 36 mm Kodak.
    Still, you could clearly read the name of the manufacturer of the cigarettes ad see the logo!
    The problem is that over the years we get used to a reasonable quality reproductions on books. Originals are just amazing, especially those taken by pro photographers!
    https://www.facebook.com/Franciszek-Grabowski-241360809684411/

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    It is not fundamentally to do with any complexity in copyrights, nor the fairness or otherwise of access conditions in other collections, nor even the quality of imagery as presented.

    For any potential historical research, it is more simple.

    The fact is that Mr du Plessis gives no traceable source collection name or reference, nor photographer credit nor attribution, while giving caption texts which themselves are unattributed and unsourced.

    The images were not taken by him. Which if any captions are his orignal work? What are their sources? All unknown.

    Just one thing is certain: anyone thinking to use these images in a responsible way for sound research is unable to do so as they stand.

    The inescapable result is that to give each image a proper source and checkable reference and/or caption, you'd have to start searching again from scratch: either to find the image, it's reference and attribution in it's source collection; and/or start from scratch from the other end (ie to find the caption source/s and thus very likely the image).

    Proper sourcing and attribution: highly valued if not essential in current work and for the benefit of others future work. Fundamental to the sort and depth of work done here, I thought.
    Last edited by Don Clark; 23rd October 2020 at 05:26.
    Toujours propos

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    This whole copyright thing is a nightmare and the more people explain it the more I get confused by it. There is also the distinction between copyright and licensing. I tried to write a book and wanted to illustrate it with period photos but the true cost of getting licences for all those I wanted was more than the potential retail value of the limited run. I have assumed that all wartime photos taken by service photographers are now out of copyright, so why do I have to pay for the privilege of using it over and above the valid reproduction fees? What about those who have original prints from the period, can they use them and just quote source as "Authors collection"? I have many out of copyright OS maps and Admiralty charts so am I free to use them in a book?

    Those image libraries are a joke as many wartime photos are from purchased collections which include many out of copyright photos which can be purchased (not licensed) from RAFM, IWM and even Historic England (Aerial phot collection) for a lot less. Another anomaly is if you can get photos via American archives you don't have to pay licensing fees as they are deemed public domain. This is how it should be otherwise the amateur historian who wants to write a well illustrated book needs to be a lottery winner.

    Perhaps I need to employ a lawyer to help sort out this mess - but that is another expense!!

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  5. #14
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    I would like to put in a word for Mr du Plessis who seems to be having his reputation rubbished here without any opportunity or invitation to defend himself. Whether you agree with his flickr page or not it is unlikely that he is going to list the sources or the "copyright" holders for the images he collects. There are probably 1000s of similar pages on flickr and other image sharing sites which are the same. I am not a modeller but know of EdP through modellers and I have found him both helpful and generous in the past sharing B&W SAAF material.
    I am not keen to start another rumour or another dispute but I have been told that the copyright of all photographs taken of British government owned equipment or taken on British government property is not owned by the person holding the camera all such photos are in fact "Crown Copyright".
    I agree with PNK.

    Steve

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  7. #15
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    PNK assumes - on what grounds does he make this assumption? Is it reasonable or not? Why should one nation's rules on copyright be the same as any other's? Just for our convenience? Why is it unreasonable that an organisation which spends its money curating a large collection (of anything) and dealing with requests receive no reward for their efforts? Because we don't wish to pay for anything? We can argue, and perhaps make very reasonable arguments, about the size of such charges, but no funding will result in no collections, which will be of no use to anyone.

  8. #16
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    Agree! There is no such thing as a "Free Lunch" - however much the advertising industry may try to convince you!! You pay for it in the end - however convoluted the journey of the money may be!
    The laws of copyright are a minefield.
    In my early days on the forum (and RAF research in general), I bought (and use/used frequently) a copy of "Military Airfields in the British Isles 1939-1945 (omnibus edition)" by Steve Willis and Barry Hollis (W&H). This was published by Enthusiasts Publications (details) and printed by Woolnough Bookbinding Ltd (details).
    In various modes I had produced script(s) which included data from W&H. I wished to acknowledge the origin. Several emails, on several occasions, to all/sundry involved with W&H produced totally zilch response - and still does!
    So what does one do?
    After considerable investigation(s) I tend to 'go ahead', and hope that the Lawyers Letter does not arrive!
    HTH
    Peter Davies
    Meteorology is a science; good meteorology is an art!
    We might not know - but we might know who does!

  9. #17
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    Interesting thread! I’m not sure about the copyright regulations in the UK, however in Canada wartime photos taken by Canadian forces photographers are not/no longer copyright. I sourced a large number of 419 Squadron images from the Canadian National Defence Image Library and was told by the librarian, they are not/no longer under copyright. No photographers are identified In the official figure captions for any of the Canadian forces images I’ve seen. Dad has a photo album with some 20-25 of his strike photos. The reverse side of these images have a “Crown Copyright Reserved” watermark on the paper. As these are Canadian images, funded by the RCAF, I’m not worried about any copyright on these images.

    Note: I am not a lawyer and what I have posted should not be construed as a legal opinion.

    Edit: an interesting document on this topic:

    https://assets.publishing.service.go...ice-201401.pdf

    Jim
    Last edited by JDCAVE; 23rd October 2020 at 19:35.

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  11. #18
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    Personal attacks on reputation are rarely if ever seen on this forum, and are not let pass if they do appear.

    "Mr du Plessis...seems to be having his reputation rubbished here"
    (SteveBrooking #14 above, emphasis added)

    That is simply not right, and indeed most unfair.

    As it seems my posts must be the intended target, for my part, I have made no adverse personal comment whatever on Mr du Plessis nor on his reputation. None.

    I've made a series of civil and entirely factual posts which, noting a clearly incorrect Copyright/rights reserved claim in passing, then focus on the lack of source attribution of images and caption notes in an image album of his on RAF WW2, and how that affects possible aircraft research by others. That's all. It's a real enough problem, however often it's done.

    As for the complexities of copyright, a quite separate topic in my mind.
    Last edited by Don Clark; 23rd October 2020 at 20:41.
    Toujours propos

  12. #19
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    On the opening page of the album if you click on 'show more' there is an album description where Mr Du Plessis acknowledges that none of the photographs are his and also offering to remove any that constitute an infringement of copyright.
    I personally found them quite interesting though clearly if you were to use them as a research resource you would need to do some further work. He does also offer contact details.

    Chris

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  14. #20
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    Default Re: Colour WWII photos

    Don

    I agree with you about the usual tone of exchange to be expected on this forum. Rightly or wrongly, I felt the cumulative tone of the posts that preceded mine (if only by implication) was unfair to someone who in a small way I knew and who had no "...opportunity or invitation to defend himself". I did not intend a personal attack on anyone my purpose was simply to say "...hey hang on a minute people...lets not get carried away here".

    Steve

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