A Retired RAF Officer on 1939 Register

**paulmcmillan** · 27th November 2020, 08:44

The 1939 Register was taken 29 September 1939

On it I found Wing Commander Edgar Theodore CARPENTER, A.F.C

Who was placed on the RAF retired list at his own request, 1st Feb. 1939 but then took a role with the Signals Directorate at Air Ministry

On the 1939 Register he stated "Wing Commander RAF No 03175 Air Ministry" - So by 29 September 1939 he was routinely using his Service Number even though he had retired

The Sept 1939 AFL cut off date was 15th August 1939 and this is the first one with Service Numbers recorded and Carpenter is listed with the number 03175, the Oct AFL Cut Off date was 12 Sept 1939

So has anyone ever found when these numbers were allocated to Officers ? Carpenter was a perm officer from the first allocation back in 1st August 1919

**Ross_McNeill** · 27th November 2020, 09:13

Allocated 1918, formalised 1919

The subsequent personal numbers are:

03175 Carpenter E T Edgar Theodore 01/04/1918
03176 Carter G P H Gerald Paul Halliley 01/08/1919
03177 Casey R F Robert Francis 02/05/1918
03178 Chapman C Cyril 01/04/1918

The dates are gradation in F/O rank from the Air Force List.

Although Carter is F/O more than a year after Carpenter and Casey the sequence has been set prior to his gradation.

Casey does not proceed beyond this rank in Air Force List so we can assume that the sequence was allocated/formalised before end of 1919 or he would have left the service and would not have been allocated a personal number.

Ross

**paulmcmillan** · 27th November 2020, 10:20

Ross thanks

So by extrapolation in brackets ()

03179 Arthur Leslie CHICK
03180 Cecil Ferdinand CHINERY
03181 Leonard de Ville CHISMAN
03182 Allan Robert CHURCHMAN
03183 John Frank CLARK
03185 Robert St. Hill CLARKE
03184 Ernest Shakespeare Borthwick CLARKE
03186 Howard Wilfred CLAYTON
(03187) Stanley Beresford COLLETT
03188 Alfred Conrad COLLIER
(03189) Nicholas COMPER
(03190) Herbert Milbourne COOMBS
03191 Maxwell Henry COOTE
(03192) Henry Turn Hamilton COPELAND
(03193) William Alec CORYTON
(03194) Dudley Fisher COX
(03195) Denys Arthur COX
03196 Percy COYLE
03197 Charles CRAWFORD
XXXXX Frederick Norman Smith CREEK -> Canx 16th Sept 1919
(03198) Gerald Esmond CREIGHTON
03199 Sydney Trevor Brander CRIPPS
03200 Richard Llewellyn CROFTON

Creek no service number as Canx 16th Sept 1919

**paulmcmillan** · 27th November 2020, 10:28

PS

CARTER, Gerald Mark, F/O, died, result of gunshot wounds (suicide, Southampton), 17 January 1920

Technically maybe he should between: these 2 - He is not - So I assume allocation after this date !

03175 Carpenter E T Edgar Theodore 01/04/1918

03176 Carter G P H Gerald Paul Halliley 01/08/1919

**Ross_McNeill** · 27th November 2020, 10:42

For the extrapolation - yes apart from Cox

(03194) Dudley Fisher COX
(03195) Denys Arthur COX

DF is 03195 and DA 03194.

03183 Clark J F is an interesting one - F/O 31/1/19, F/L 1/1/27 then leaves service to return as F/L 7/5/38 and retains his 1918/19 personal number.

So extrapolation in 1938 for his gradation group will not work.

There are numerous examples of this return to service with out of sequence personal number.

Ross

**Ross_McNeill** · 27th November 2020, 10:59

Carter Gerald Mark is an example of an officer who appears in the April 1918 AFL but who has left the active service list a month before or after formation.

He was posted to Home Establishment for disposal on 25 May 1918 and although his RAF service continues to May 1919 then Army to 26/10/19 he has been flagged not to be employed in RAF beyond 1919 deadline for return to previous arm.

Ross

**paulmcmillan** · 27th November 2020, 11:17

Think can maybe date it better to after March 1920 - see William DEAN

03211 Edward Peverell Meggs DAVIS
03210 Edward Derek DAVIS
03212 Reginald Morville DAVY
02111 Henry DAWES
03213 Walter Reginald DAY
(03214/03215?) Frederick William DEANE - Killed Snipe E647 25th April 1921
(03214/03215?) Bernard Frederick DEANE F4933 15th April 1921
X William DEANE - Killed in F4447 Bristol Fighter 20.03.20
03216 Cuthbert Joseph Stanley DEARLOVE
Z Horace Gilbert Wanklyn DEBENHAM Canx 16th Sept 1919
03217 Desmond Herlouin De'BURGH
(03218) Eric Charles DELAMAIN -- Died 10 Jan 1937
03219 John Douglas Stirling DENHOLM

**paulmcmillan** · 27th November 2020, 11:30

Ross

Just downloaded AIR-76-78-148 for Gerald Mark Carter says Perm Commission RAF 1-8-1919 his record implies still serving RAF officer when he died Jan 17th 1920

Newspaper reports state
" FLYING OFFICER FOUND SHOT. A flying officer named Gerald Mark Carter has been found dead from a revolver shot at North Stoneham-Aerodrome. ..." Published: Thursday 22 January 1920
Newspaper: Daily Mirror - Hampshire other reports saying "He had been suffering from depression"

The Inquest says he was due to be posted to Mesopotamia soon

**Ross_McNeill** · 27th November 2020, 12:07

Ok so possibly 1920 rather than 1918/19.

Got to be very careful of extrapolation as a large number of officers were marked * in AFLs as (a) hold permanent or short service commissions, or (b) are re-seconded, or (c) having previous pensionable service in the Navy or Army, are retained in order to complete time for pension.

A number of bods serve out pension time while not given a RAF personal number while others (mostly ex RNAS from what I can see) are recalled to active service 1919 for White Russian Campaign etc.

Ross

**Ross_McNeill** · 27th November 2020, 14:05

I've revisited this and found that I have swapped Casey R F and Carter G P H, Carter G M notes in my transcripts at the TNA.

03176 Carter G M Gerald Mark
03177 Carter G P H Gerald Paul Halliley
Casey R F Robert Francis

Casey R F was retained by the Army arm (8th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers) while Carter continued as SSC until PC

Sorry for the brain fade - March 1920 looks more and more like the final roll out date going by a couple of other entries.

Ross