A Retired RAF Officer on 1939 Register

[paulmcmillan]

Ross

Thanks for looking at this - Yes it would be great to get an approx date for the RAF Service number allocation and circa March 1920 is looking good!


Paul

[paulmcmillan]

I wonder if the date was April 1st 1920!!!

[Ross_McNeill]

Suspect it was mostly done Nov 1919 to Jan 1920 then checked and signed off Feb/Mar 1920 from using your method of fatality dating.

March 1921 AFL correct for Gradations to 10th Feb 21 is still correcting for Officers awaiting disposal including the Middle East so certainly a year after they will still tinkering with the Active List. So rather than a specific date it seems a period range is a better description.

Ross

[Terry]

Creek resigned his commission in 1920 and was reappointed to a commission in the RAFVR Trg Br in 1941 with the service number 61810. Commission resigned in 55: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...upplement/1935
Regards, Terry

[paulmcmillan]

Terry thanks for that while not conclusive it provides a bit more evidence as some officers were re commissioned in WW2 with their original numbers - if he never had one allocated he would have had to be issued with one

[paulmcmillan]

The old Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence argument

[Ross_McNeill]

"bit more evidence as some officers were re commissioned in WW2 with their original numbers"

Some is the operative term - transfer/recommission between regular RAF and AAF involved a change of terms of service so this in pre war/early war meant a new personal number. However there are also exceptions in RAFVR

I've been using Paul Albert Alexander Boss as the litmus paper test.

Commissioned RFC then RAF on formation, 1919 unemployed list, 1921 back on flying duty, , 1921 back on unemployed list, 1923 RAFO, 1931 relinquishes commission, March 1939 RAFVR A&SD with personal number in the 1939 sequence.

http://theauxiliaries.com/men-alphab...-paa/boss.html

AIR-76-46-188

http://www.n5490.org/Pilots/Matthews...May%201931.pdf

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../3252/data.pdf

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../2266/data.pdf

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/.../6664/data.pdf

Ross

[paulmcmillan]

I thought I would come back to you on this on the mysterious case of Air Commodore John Frederick YOUNG CBE, MBE and MM being 21040

John Frederick YOUNG was awarded the MM in March 1917 as follows

Name: John Frederick Young mm
Regimental Number: 3702
Regiment: Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment)
Battalion: 12th Battalion
Rank: CSM
Medals: Military Medal

He then joined the RAF as a 2nLt


FLYING BRANCH.
The undermentioned 2nd Lts. (Admin.)
to be 2nd Lts. (A. and S.) :
F. J. Young

Air Ministry,
15th February, 1919.
The name of John Frederick Young is as
now described, and not F. J. Young, as
stated in the Gazette dated 24th May 1918.

He is SSC


F/O John Frederick Young (A. & S'.) 12/9/1919


Then the following stellar career


The undermentioned are transferred to the Stores Branch on probation in the ranks stated, with effect from, and with seniority of, 25th May 1925:—
Flying Officers.
John.Frederick YOUNG,M.M.

STORES BRANCH.
Flying Officer John Frederick YOUNG,
M.M., is confirmed in his appointment in
the Stores Branch and is granted a permanent commission in the rank stated. 17th Feb. 1926


STORES BRANCH.
The undermentioned are promoted with
effect from 1st Apr. 1932:—
Flying Officers to be Flight Lieutenants.
John Frederick YOUNG, M.M.

MBE Flight Lieutenant John Frederick Young, MM. 1936 Birthday honours


J. F. YOUNG, M.B.E., M.M. ( 21040).
Temp GC 1 Oct 1942
MiD june 1944

CBE Group Captain John Frederick YOUNG , M.B.E. M.M 1 Jan 1946


Wing Commander (temp. Group Captain) to Group
Captain:—
1st Oct. 1946.
J. F. YOUNG, C.B.E., M.M


EQUIPMENT BRANCH
Retirement. Group Captain J. F. YOUNG, C.B.E., M.M., retaining the rank of Air Commodore. 28th Nov. 1950.

Also see

https://bid.tennants.co.uk/m/lot-det...817%3Fpage%3D3

So the issue is why a service number 21040? _ Most of his contempories havbe number sin the 08xxx 1xxxx range

I think the issue is this OTHER John Frederick Young

I believe at some time the 2 of them had some sort of confusion on who was who and for some reason the allocation of their numbers may have became "swapped"



Air Ministry,
20th January, 1924
RAF GENERAL DUTIES BRANCH.
The undermentioned are granted short service commissions in the ranks stated, with
effect from, and with seniority of, 14th Jan.
1924:—
Pilot Officers on probation (for five years on
the active list).
John Frederick YOUNG

RAF GENERAL DUTIES BRANCH.
The undermentioned Pilot Officers on probation are confirmed in rank : —
10th May 1924.
John Frederick YOUNG

_> http://www.rcawsey.co.uk/Acc1925.htm

2.5.24 Bristol Fighter F4485, 2 FTS, Duxford
Midair collision with Avro 504K F8945, Duxford
Plt Off Eric Martin MC (29) killed
Plt Off John Frederick Young unhurt in Avro


RAF
GENERAL DUTIES BRANCH.
The undermentioned Pilot Officers are
promoted to the rank of Flying Officer:—
John Frederick YOUNG, 10th Dec. 1925.


Flying Officer John Frederick YOUNG is transferred to the Reserve, Class C. 1st Nov. 1928
Reserve of Air Force Officers.
General Duties Branch

Flying Officer John Frederick YOUNG relinquishes his commission on completion of service. 1st Nov. 1932


ROYAL ARTILLERY.
52nd (Lond.) A.A. Bde.
John Frederick YOUNG, late Flying Offr.,
R.A.F., to be Lt. 30th Oct. 1935.

ROYAL ARTILLERY.
Lt. J. F. Young to be Capt. 1st Nov. 1938. (C. of Lond.) A.A. Bde.

ROYAL ARTILLERY.
Capt. J. F. Young, from R.A., to be . Capt. ist Apr. 1939.
Capt. J. F. Young to be Maj. ist Apr. 1939-