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Thread: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    A few more queries to be sorted.

    V6231 – either samaged with 14 Sqn on 8 Feb 42, and struck off charge on 18 Sep 42, or actually lost on 18 Sep 42.
    Z6430 – either damaged with 70 OTU when in a mid-air collision with V5576 and SOC 12 May 42, or lost with 72 OTU on 30 Dec 42
    Z7920 – either lost with 8 Sqn on 15 Jul 42, or lost with 55 R&SU on 20 Nov 42
    Z9541 – lost with 203 Sqn, was this on 10 Jan 42 or 10 Feb 42?
    BA786 – lost with 13 Sqn, listed as both 1 Jan 43 and 1 May 43
    59 Sqn – code TR-D was lost with 59 Sqn on 25 Apr 41. It does not seem to have been R3833, which was lost with 5 AOS on 15 Nov 42

    Here are the previous ones:
    Unresolved
    “L7965” – lost with 113 Sqn on 25 May 42 (in addition to Z9741)
    L8538 – lost with 45 Sqn on 4 Feb 41 (some sources say it was L8530) – L8538 was SOC 30 Sqn 1 Jan 44?
    “L9351” – lost with 4 (C) FPP on 18 Jun 40. This was one of seven lost in France on delivery to Malta – the other six were L9263, L9314, L9315, L9317, L9318, L9334)
    N3581 – lost with 45 Sqn 3 Jan 42 or 30 Jan 42, or with 14 Sqn 30 Jan 42
    N3628 – lost with ADU. Was loss on 1 Jun 42 or 2 Jun 42? - Warner lists both
    T2384 – lost at sea 14 Jan 41 (ABN serials book agrees). But Warner (P 482) also lists it as lost at sea 19 Apr 41 – which aircraft was this?
    V5388 – FTR on 3 Jan 42 whilst with 34 Sqn (Warner says 2 Jan 42). He also says V5388 was DBR in an air-raid on Butterworth on 8 Dec 41, together with V5381, Z5799 and V5633 which had belly-landed earlier. Was there another machine lost in the Butterworth raid, or?....
    V5589 - listed first as lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41, then with 113 Sqn on 9 Sep 42 (photo caption P574). In the Appendix on P583, the loss is said to be V5938, but the crew details don’t match with the database. The 60 Sqn loss is discussed here: http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...qn-8-9-12-1941
    V5589 was indeed lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41. The two 113 Sqn losses on 9 Sep 42 were V5938 and V6507
    BUT: the Australian Casualty file states V5589! – so still not sorted!
    “V6165” – lost with 82 Sqn on 21 May 41. Serial given in AIR 81/6643 as V6165, which does not exist: http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C16755940
    Z7799 – listed first as DBR in crash landing at Palembang, Borneo on 16 Jan 42, then as destroyed in air raid at P1 Sumatra on 7 Feb 42

    Unknown aircraft
    14 Sqn – the ORB reports Z9307 (not valid) as lost with 14 Sqn on 11 May 41. It cannot have been L9307, as this was lost with 34 Sqn on 29 Jun 42
    (the above entry removed from the entry under L9307)
    34 Sqn – lost on 28 Dec 41, in addition to V5636
    34 Sqn MIA 20 Jan 42 – in ORB as L1414, which was lost on 1 Jan 42. Discussed earlier at:
    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...o-end-Feb-1942
    113 Sqn – second loss on 25 May 42, additional to Z9751. Warner quotes “L9765” which isn’t valid.
    211 Sqn – second loss on 13 Feb 42, additional to Z9829.

    Resolved (see discussion in the thread for details)
    L4827 – Warner and the serial database say it was a IV. However, it was a I.
    L4864 – listed as lost 107 Sqn 24 Apr 40, and as lost 53 Sqn 16 May 40 – L4864 was lost with 53 Sqn. The 107 Sqn loss is very likely to have been P4864.
    L8529 – It was repaired following the 5 Jul 40 incident in AIR81/1021. It seems that it was serving with 13 (H) Sqn on 7 May 42, but if damaged at all, this was not serious. It was actually struck from 72 OTU on 25 Jun 42.
    V5573 – mentioned as lost with 45 Sqn on 6 May 41, and again with 124 Sqn on 25 Nov 41. The 45 Sqn incident (actually on 5 May 41?) was repairable.

    55 Sqn – Warner P488 says T2177 of 55 Sqn was hit by V5514 on landing on 10 May 41. However, T2177 was damaged with 113 Sqn in Greece 14 Apr 41, force-landed at Larissa; damaged 15 Apr 41 in air-raid, abandoned. Little doubt about this, it was coded AD-V, see photo at: see photo: http://113squadron.com/id21.htm
    F1180 only shows two aircraft involved in the 10 May 41 incident – Blenheim V5514 hit Magister R1974

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    A few more queries. Before I start, some minor comments on published sources:
    L1166 – Brian Cull in “Blenheims over Greece and Crete” says this was lost on 20 Nov 41. AIR27-344-9 says it was 21 Nov 41, which is agreed by Warner.
    “L8411” – another typo in the above, which repeats an error in the ORB. This loss on 24 Nov 41 should read L8511, as confirmed by Don at: http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_blenheim_i.html
    “AZ932” – says lost with 308 MU on 21 Jan 43. This was AZ392 according to the Air Britain serials book. Our db also needs correcting.

    New queries
    L8731 – this was lost with 64 Sqn on 8 Nov 39, as per http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C16359680 But Warner also quotes this serial as being lost with 12 (P) AFU on 19 Feb 44. Which aircraft was this?
    V6138 – V6518 is listed in Warner as lost 13 Aug 43 with 1 AGS, as agreed in the db. Warner also lists V6138 lost in the same circumstances, but with no further details. These seems quite unlikely, but what did happen to V6138?
    Z6381 – said to have been destroyed by fire at Heliopolis when under the control of the British Airways Repair Unit. Date listed as both 18 Mar 42 and 18 Mar 43, which is correct?
    BA407 – DB says lost with 15 Sqn SAAF on 28 Aug 42. Warner says lost on 24 Sep 42. Was this later date actually the strike date?

    ================================================== ================================================== =================================================

    Already asked
    “L7965” – lost with 113 Sqn on 25 May 42 (in addition to Z9741)
    L8538 – lost with 45 Sqn on 4 Feb 41 (some sources say it was L8530) – L8538 was SOC 30 Sqn 1 Jan 44?
    “L9351” – lost with 4 (C) FPP on 18 Jun 40. This was one of seven lost in France on delivery to Malta – the other six were L9263, L9314, L9315, L9317, L9318, L9334)
    N3581 – lost with 45 Sqn 3 Jan 42 or 30 Jan 42, or with 14 Sqn 30 Jan 42
    N3628 – lost with ADU. Was loss on 1 Jun 42 or 2 Jun 42? - Warner lists both
    T2384 – lost at sea 14 Jan 41 (ABN serials book agrees). But Warner (P 482) also lists it as lost at sea 19 Apr 41 – which aircraft was this?
    V5388 – FTR on 3 Jan 42 whilst with 34 Sqn (Warner says 2 Jan 42). He also says V5388 was DBR in an air-raid on Butterworth on 8 Dec 41, together with V5381, Z5799 and V5633 which had belly-landed earlier. Was there another machine lost in the Butterworth raid, or?....
    V5589 - listed first as lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41, then with 113 Sqn on 9 Sep 42 (photo caption P574). In the Appendix on P583, the loss is said to be V5938, but the crew details don’t match with the database. The 60 Sqn loss is discussed here: http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...qn-8-9-12-1941
    V5589 was indeed lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41. The two 113 Sqn losses on 9 Sep 42 were V5938 and V6507
    BUT: the Australian Casualty file states V5589! – so still not sorted!
    “V6165” – lost with 82 Sqn on 21 May 41. Serial given in AIR 81/6643 as V6165, which does not exist: http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C16755940
    V6231 – either damaged with 14 Sqn on 8 Feb 42, and struck off charge on 18 Sep 42, or actually lost on 18 Sep 42.
    Z6430 – either damaged with 70 OTU when in a mid-air collision with V5576 and SOC 12 May 42, or lost with 72 OTU on 30 Dec 42
    Z7799 – listed first as DBR in crash landing at Palembang, Borneo on 16 Jan 42, then as destroyed in air raid at P1 Sumatra on 7 Feb 42
    Z7920 – either lost with 8 Sqn on 15 Jul 42, or lost with 55 R&SU on 20 Nov 42
    Z9541 – lost with 203 Sqn, was this on 10 Jan 42 or 10 Feb 42?
    BA786 – lost with 13 Sqn, listed as both 1 Jan 43 and 1 May 43
    59 Sqn – code TR-D was lost with 59 Sqn on 25 Apr 41. It does not seem to have been R3833, which was lost with 5 AOS on 15 Nov 42

    Unknown aircraft
    14 Sqn – the ORB reports Z9307 (not valid) as lost with 14 Sqn on 11 May 41. It cannot have been L9307, as this was lost with 34 Sqn on 29 Jun 42
    (the above entry removed from the entry under L9307)
    34 Sqn – lost on 28 Dec 41, in addition to V5636
    34 Sqn MIA 20 Jan 42 – in ORB as L1414, which was lost on 1 Jan 42. Discussed earlier at:
    http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...o-end-Feb-1942
    113 Sqn – second loss on 25 May 42, additional to Z9751. Warner quotes “L9765” which isn’t valid.
    211 Sqn – second loss on 13 Feb 42, additional to Z9829.

    Resolved (see discussion in the thread for details)
    L4827 – Warner and the serial database say it was a IV. However, it was a I.
    L4864 – listed as lost 107 Sqn 24 Apr 40, and as lost 53 Sqn 16 May 40 – L4864 was lost with 53 Sqn. The 107 Sqn loss is very likely to have been P4864.
    L8529 – It was repaired following the 5 Jul 40 incident in AIR81/1021. It seems that it was serving with 13 (H) Sqn on 7 May 42, but if damaged at all, this was not serious. It was actually struck from 72 OTU on 25 Jun 42.
    V5573 – mentioned as lost with 45 Sqn on 6 May 41, and again with 124 Sqn on 25 Nov 41. The 45 Sqn incident (actually on 5 May 41?) was repairable.

    55 Sqn – Warner P488 says T2177 of 55 Sqn was hit by V5514 on landing on 10 May 41. However, T2177 was damaged with 113 Sqn in Greece 14 Apr 41, force-landed at Larissa; damaged 15 Apr 41 in air-raid, abandoned. Little doubt about this, it was coded AD-V, see photo at: see photo: http://113squadron.com/id21.htm
    F1180 only shows two aircraft involved in the 10 May 41 incident – Blenheim V5514 hit Magister R1974

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    AZ932” – says lost with 308 MU on 21 Jan 43. This was AZ392 according to the Air Britain serials book. Our db also needs correcting.
    Did you transpose the numbers? As per Bruce Robertson AZ392 doesnt exist and is a block within Miles Master. So AZ932 is right - the DB has been listing AZ392 (Wrong) now corrected to AZ932. Original source for this record was Warner.

    BA407 – DB says lost with 15 Sqn SAAF on 28 Aug 42. Warner says lost on 24 Sep 42. Was this later date actually the strike date?
    https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...mageViewerLink Page 90/91/112 confirm losses on 28 Aug but not on 24 Sept

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    Jagan,
    Thanks for confirming the 15 Sqn SAAF loss.
    Yes, I transposed AZ392/AZ932. The DB has been corrected which is the main thing.
    Andy

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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    A few more queries. Before I start, a comment on the db:
    L1393 – DB says lost 5 Feb 41 6 Feb 41 (sic). 6 Feb 41 according to Warner, Cull and AIR 81/5044: http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ls/r/C16689142

    New queries
    K7105 – listed as both lost with 72 OTU on 16 Nov 41, and with METS on 7 Feb 43
    V6310 – said to have belly-landed at Gibraltar on 4 Apr 42 with OADU. It never shows with any other unit until SOC on 19 Jan 44. Why such a long gap?
    BA931 – listed as lost with 319 MU on both 28 Mar 43 and 30 Nov 44
    113 Sqn – a take off collision on 28 Sep 42 took care of Z9749, plus either Z7369 or Z7639. Which one was it, and what was the ultimate fate of the other one?

    Three more aircraft were struck off charge as follows:
    K7182 (last unit 30 Sqn) 24 Feb 42
    N3559 (last unit 34 Sqn) 30 Apr 44
    T1987 (last unit 203 Sqn) Feb 42
    Does anyone know what actually happened to any of them, ie what caused the strike?

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    Hello Andy,

    Re. Blenheim 'L9351'. This is P6951.

    Ever since I first came across this in 1990 in 'MALTA: THE HURRICANE YEARS' by Shores/Cull/Malizia I have tried several times without success to correctly identify it. I believed the correct serial must be close to 'L9351' in terms of digit combination. L9351 itself being in a 'Blackout Block' of serials not issued. Early on my suspicion fell on P6951 but I could not prove it until the release of the relevant AIR 81 casualty files. Only a few years ago I obtained copies of all the Blenheim AIR 81 files for this ferry mission.
    Viewing these I found at least six variations of the serial for Wilkinson-Bell's aircraft ! None of the other 11 Blenheims were similarly afflicted, just this one. At any rate the correct serial, P9651, is to be found in one official report in AIR 81/2299. For me it was one of those 'YES !!!' moments that is so satisfying in our research.
    I would hazard a guess that the person compiling the list of Blenheims being assigned to this ferry flight thought such a different serial must be wrong and that it had to be in the same range as the others. Not unreasonable if one was not able to physically go outside to check (or too lazy !).

    Hope this helps all Blenheim enthusiasts !

    Regards,

    Martin Gleeson.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Martin Gleeson For This Useful Post:

    Jagan (8th February 2021)

  8. #27
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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    Martin,
    Thanks, good work! Nice to get another one solved.
    Andy

  9. #28
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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Marden View Post
    BA931 – listed as lost with 319 MU on both 28 Mar 43 and 30 Nov 44
    The 28 March 43 loss is confirmed by Jodhpur ORB.

    Blenheims were end of life by 1944, the last Blenheim loss in SEAC is on 30 Nov 44
    http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...ord=&crdb=SEAC
    I will attribute Graham's note of it being lost on 1944-11-30 to a Typo.

  10. #29
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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    Jagan,
    Thanks, that's one more cleared.
    Andy

  11. #30
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    Default Re: Bristol Blenheim anomalies

    I have K7182 flying out of Maleme, Crete on 16th May 1941 by the then 30 Sqn CO S/L Milward with a final destination of Heliopolis. I then have it moving on to 108MU.

    Regards,
    Simon

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