Bristol Blenheim anomalies

[Andy Marden]

As some may have noticed, I have been reading Graham Warner's Bristol Blenheim opus (2nd Edition). It really is a fine book and an interesting read.
However, there are quite a lot of anomalies in the serial listings. A few are listed below. I appreciate that the loss of records may have caused a lot of these "problems", but it would be nice to resolve even one or two of them.
I'm not expecting anyone to put hours of effort into these by the way, but I thought it might be worth highlighting some of the discrepancies. I will no doubt have some more in the future.
Thanks,
Andy

L4827 – Warner and the serial database say it was a IV. I thought it was a I?
L4864 – listed as lost 107 Sqn 24 Apr 40, and as lost 53 Sqn 16 May 40
L8529 – Warner says lost with 13 (H) Sqn on 7 May 42; ABN serials book says SOC 223 Sqn 25 Jun 42. Plus AIR81/1021 which says lost 5 Jul 40…
L8538 – lost with 45 Sqn on 4 Feb 41 (some sources say it was L8530) – L8538 was SOC 30 Sqn 1 Jan 44?
L9307 – the ORB reports Z9307 (not valid) as lost with 14 Sqn on 11 May 41. Was it L9307?
V5388 – FTR on 3 Jan 42 whilst with 34 Sqn (Warner says 2 Jan 42). He also says V5388 was DBR in an air-raid on Butterworth on 8 Dec 41, together with V5381, Z5799 and V5633 which had belly-landed earlier. Was there another machine lost in the Butterworth raid, or?....
V5589 - listed first as lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41, then with 113 Sqn on 9 Sep 42 (photo caption P574). In the Appendix on P583, the loss is said to be V5938, but the crew details don’t match with the database. The 60 Sqn loss is discussed here: http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...qn-8-9-12-1941
Z7799 – listed first as DBR in crash landing at Palembang, Borneo on 16 Jan 42, then as destroyed in air raid at P1 Sumatra on 7 Feb 42.

Unknown aircraft
34 Sqn - MIA 20 Jan 42 – in ORB as L1414, which was lost on 1 Jan 42. Discussed earlier at:
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?3862-34-Squadron-casualties-Dec-1941-to-end-Feb-1942
113 Sqn – second loss on 25 May 42, additional to Z9751. Warner quotes “L9765” which isn’t valid.
211 Sqn – second loss on 13 Feb 42, additional to Z9829. If Don doesn’t know, I guess no-one does….

[Jagan]

While we are at it,

I have the following recorded as Blenheim deaths in the CWGC Unaccounted DB without a serial number. Any help is appreciated.

uqid	Date		SURNAME		Service No	Rank	Country
59711	1941-06-27	Blenheim	BULLOCH	JOHN	743063	Flight Sergeant	Syria
104619	1941-08-01	Blenheim I	RAMSAY	ALISTAIR STEWART	88659	Pilot Officer	Italy
86993	1941-12-04	Blenheim	KIDBY	ROBERT GEORGE	1157291	Sergeant	Italy
59811	1941-12-04	Blenheim	BURCHER	LESLIE JAMES	919091	Sergeant	Italy
98033	1941-12-19	Blenheim	McLEVY	ALFRED	809126	Sergeant	Malta
58865	1941-12-19	Blenheim	BROWN	CEDRIC TYSON	404197	Sergeant	Malta
104973	1941-12-19	Blenheim	READ	ARTHUR THOMAS	84674	Flying Officer	Malta
54785	1941-12-20	Blenheim	BAYFORD	CHARLES SYDNEY HERBERT	903502	Flight Sergeant	Libya
95593	1941-12-20	Blenheim	MORT	CYRIL STANTON	956840	Sergeant	Libya
109978	1941-12-20	Blenheim	SHERRATT	THOMAS WILLIAM	751294	Sergeant	Libya
59741	1941-12-20	Blenheim	BUMSTEAD	CHARLES HAROLD	R/56174	Warrant Officer Class II	Libya
80310	1941-12-22	Blenheim	HENLEY	ROY FREDERICK JOSEPH	1253157	Sergeant	Egypt
101276	1941-12-22	Blenheim	PARSONS	HAROLD FREDERICK DOLLAND	1151990	Sergeant	Libya
66496	1941-12-22	Blenheim	DARCY	DESMOND PHILIP	998985	Sergeant	Libya
103706	1941-12-24	Blenheim I	POYNTER	DICK MIDDLETON	39933	Flight Lieutenant	United Kingdom
101597	1941-12-24	Blenheim	PAUL	ISAAC	102610	Pilot Officer	Malta
63959	1941-12-24	Blenheim I	CONSTABLE	WILLIAM RONALD	101504	Pilot Officer	United Kingdom
119714	1941-12-24	Blenheim I	WATSON	RONALD FREDERICK	1175044	Aircraftman 1st Class	United Kingdom
58763	1941-12-24	Blenheim I	BROOM	THOMAS	1105527	Aircraftman 2nd Class	United Kingdom
92615	1941-12-26	Blenheim	MARSHALL	WILLIAM CHARLES	920238	Sergeant	Malta
114203	1941-12-26	Blenheim	SUMMERS	OSWALD COLIN	1177035	Sergeant	Malta
56114	1941-12-26	Blenheim	BILLETT	JAMES FORD	1051615	Sergeant	Malta
97553	1942-02-13	Blenheim	McINERNEY	THOMAS TAYLOR	407273	Flying Officer	Australia
97675	1942-07-04	Blenheim	McKECHNIE	JOHN KENNETH	J/6179	Pilot Officer	India
96009	1942-08-19	Blenheim	MULLIGAN	DENNIS	142259	Air Mechanic	Kenya
61287	1942-08-20	Blenheim	CARROLL	JOHN ALAN	101367	Air Mechanic	Kenya
108059	1943-01-30	Blenheim	SAINSBURY	POPHAM	414389	Flying Officer	Tunisia
102564	1943-01-30	Blenheim	PHILLIPS	CECIL HENRY WALTER	1312445	Sergeant	Tunisia
86744	1943-01-30	Blenheim	KENNY	MATTHIAS FRANCIS	1126351	Sergeant	Tunisia
24359	1944-08-19	Blenheim	JULSKI	TADEUSZ	P/782478	Starszy Sierzant	United Kingdom

[PeteT]

19/08/1944 Blenheim AZ890 12 (P) AFU (from AM Form 1180)

Regards

PeteT

[alieneyes]

McKECHNIE

Blenheim V6465 http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=V6465

Letter from 927096 Sgt W. Turner to Officer Commanding, RAF Station New Delhi 7 July 1942.

Jagan, P/O McKechnie born Etawah, India 12 February 1912.

Regards,

Dave

[davew]

Jagan

For the crash on 24/12/41 I have Poynter, Broom, Constable, and Watson, lost with L9313 of 254 Squadron At Pitmedden Church, Aberdeenshire

For the 19/8/44 I have a note of AZ890 of 12 PAFU lost at Melton Mowbray which will account for Julski; Warner does not mention a fatality but Julski's death is registered at Melton Mowbray Sept 1944

Warner's Blenheim 2002
Free BMD

regards

DaveW

[Don Clark]

#1
L4827 Mark IV To 60 Sqn
One of 84 Mark IVs L4823-L4926 del Mar-Jul 39 Contract 529181/36
(with 34 Mark Is under same contract, L4817-L4822, L4907-L4934)
Summarising Halley RAF Aircraft L1000-N9999 (AB 93)*, quite reliable, in absence of o/l access to RAF Museum AM Form 78 +/or Del Records
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/researc...t-records.aspx

*And which you have...

L9307 v Z9307 14 Sqn: So see above - not L9307 if Halley's summary correct lost 34 Sqn 29 Jun 42
Gunby & Temple RAF Bomber Losses etc record
no 14 Sqn loss 11 May 41, in any edn/corrn


13 Feb 42 2nd loss 211 Sqn Blenheim IV id
Get back to you. If I know, it'll be on site.

[Jagan]

To answer Andy's Original post:

L4827 – Warner and the serial database say it was a IV. I thought it was a I?

Bruce Robertson's "British Military Aircraft Serials 1911-1979". And he states for the set L4817-4934 -118 Blenheim I/IV Notes: L4823-4906 - Mk IV. remainder Mk1
AB serials L series book also confirms the same - L4823-4906 - Mk IV

V5589 - listed first as lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41, then with 113 Sqn on 9 Sep 42 (photo caption P574). In the Appendix on P583, the loss is said to be V5938, but the crew details don’t match with the database.

Checked up the sources.

Blenheim IV V5938
Flying Officer Owen Lawrence LOANE (402514)
Flight Sergeant Robin Edgell BARNARD (404464)
Flight Sergeant Thomas BELL (402184)

last two wrongly recorded against Blenheim IV V6507 (now fixed)

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...7&S=71&T=P&R=0 Cas Telegram
NA ORB https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...mageViewerLink Page 42

[Jagan]

V5589 - listed first as lost with 60 Sqn on 9 Dec 41, then with 113 Sqn on 9 Sep 42 (photo caption P574).

Aus Cas file is quite sure the aircraft lost by 113 Sqn on 9/9/1942 was V5589
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sear...59509&T=P&S=85

Crew
Sgt John Phibbs Ferguson REID 404362
Sgt P K WILSON (Obs) 1252303
Sgt L A WHITE (WOps/AG) 1262420


So I guess the 60 Sqdn loss for 9 Dec 1941 is now suspect.


Flight Lieutenant Joseph Adlington Ballantyne DOBSON (39597)
Sergeant Ernest Frederick William FOWLER (537770)
Flight Sergeant George Robert SMITH (562896)

AIR 81 says V5931 http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=V5931
But also provides a clue to a V5598 http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=V5598

-------------------------------------------------------

AIR81/10852
Blenheim V5931,aircraft shot down and crashed near Singora, Siam, 34 Squadron, 9 Dec 41
Flight Lieutenant J A B Dobson,
Sergeant G W Smith,
Sergeant E F W Fowler;
All missing believed killed; http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...ate=1941-12-09 incorrectly linked to V5589

AIR81/10852
Blenheim V5598, aircraft shot down and crashed near Singora, Siam, 34 Squadron, 11 December 1941.
Sergeant A Mc Johnstone,
Flying Officer P N Kingwill,
Sergeant G W Gregory: prisoners of war:

AIR81/10863
Blenheim L4829, shot down, aerial combat near Khota Bharu, Malaya, 60 Squadron, 8 December 1941;
Flight Lieutenant G P Westopp-Bennett,
Sergeant R A Webb,
Flight Sergeant R J H Pyle: missing believed killed;
Correctly linked to http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...ame=&serialno=

AIR81/10863
Blenheim V5598 (Incorrect as the proposed serial is L4913), shot down, aerial combat near Khota Bharu, Malaya, 60 Squadron, 8 December 1941
Flight Lieutenant W E Bowden, (POW)
Pilot Officer W A B Logan (RAAF),
Sergeant R L Clarke: missing believed killed;
Correctly linked to http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=L4913 L4913

[Don Clark]

Re Post #1 and
Re Post #2 T McInerney 407273

211 Sqn 13 Feb 1942 losses
No 1942 Operations Record Book survived the NEI disaster
but see 1942 Ops compilation ex Log Books, diaries, letters, cas reports at http://www.211squadron.org/1942.html

And the two Blenheim IV aircraft:
Z9829 the apparent a/craft id, Mackay Oddie Payne killed on forced landing.
Scant remains found in jungle 1967 and interred as u/k airman Lutwyche, a sensitive point for family, who are close friends.
See http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_b...v__.html#Z9829
and see http://www.211squadron.org/nh_oddie.html#13Feb1942 esp a/craf id exp.

Z???? id unrecorded in any source to hand (personnel files inc cas signals, cas reports; nor RAAF loss cards).
Apparently of the Z series, as virtually all the Sqn 1942 a/craft were.
Lost on ditching Banka Strait, Chalmers and Kendrick later rescued, McInerney lost on ditching.
See http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_b...l#ChalmersCrew
and see http://www.211squadron.org/gm_kendrick.html#Ditching

Overall 13 Feb action summary:
http://www.211squadron.org/rn_bateso...html#13Feb1942

Overall Far East 1942, Sumatra Java accounts see
http://www.211squadron.org/the_far_east.html
and
http://www.211squadron.org/rn_bateson_dfc.html#FarEast
and
http://www.211squadron.org/sumatra___java.html




Finding material on my 211 Squadron website:
Broad look: see Site Summary http://www.211squadron.org/site_summary.html and/or
See also site pages menu, LHS, all pages, lists all pages.

Exact search: (eg Date, Name, Service no, A/craft serial, place) try
"your search" site:www.211squadron.org
in whatever engine you prefer: Bing, DDG & OneSearch are all useful, the latter 2 least intrusive.
On page search: Ctrl F your text


211 Squadron 1940-1942 Blenheim I and Blenheim IV
My Blenheim I and Blenheim IV pages give as complete account of 211 Sqn a/craft & losses as I've so far (1998-2021) been able to compile, reconciling a great many records, mostly back to source (ie not simply blind copying printed works). There may be one or two a/craft histories still possible to add and there may yet, as ever, be corrections to be made.
Blenheim I: http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_blenheim_i.html
Blenheim IV: http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_blenheim_iv__.html

I answer posts the way I do, thinking that by "showing my workings" both the OP and other readers now and later may see useful, checkable info, and about how and where to look further, in future, on other topics.
The complexities apparent in this thread are sufficient rebuff to the terse "I have XYZ" style of reply.

The price I pay for writing and keeping my 211 Squadron history the way I do is not only sombre reflection on all the men lost
but also the attention required to address the endless tide of site plunderers, great and small,
who plagiarise text (a breach of copyright) and copy images (a breach of courtesy and site use conditions)
with no acknowledgement and almost invariably abusive indignation when addressed.

This cost I carry out of respect for the hard service and heavy loss of ordinary men doing far from ordinary things in dire times, some number of whom I have been fortunate to know.

[Andy Marden]

Gents,
Thanks to all for the input, and nice to see that Jagan has solved some of his problems. See below for some more answers.
Don, I always enjoy reading your messages as they are always helpful. My reference to you in the query was as a result of consulting your excellent 211 Sqn website, where the second loss of 13 Feb 42 is indeed shown as unknown. However, I do take slight issue with your throw-away line "The complexities apparent in this thread are sufficient rebuff to the terse "I have XYZ" style of reply." Sadly many of us, and I am most definitely one, just do not have the depth of knowledge required to be able to answer queries so comprehensively. Speaking personally, I have no specific interest in the Blenheim, but have simply highlighted some anomalies in the hope that others more interested might have their attention drawn to them, and in some cases be able to solve them. If nothing else, the relevant serials will appear if future users search for them in the serials database on this site. I cannot offer much more than "I have it as...". Are you saying that should disqualify me from posting anything?

Anyway, let's move on. Firstly regarding L4827, where it was said:

#1
L4827 Mark IV To 60 Sqn
One of 84 Mark IVs L4823-L4926 del Mar-Jul 39 Contract 529181/36
(with 34 Mark Is under same contract, L4817-L4822, L4907-L4934)
Summarising Halley RAF Aircraft L1000-N9999 (AB 93)*, quite reliable, in absence of o/l access to RAF Museum AM Form 78 +/or Del Records
https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/researc...t-records.aspx

*And which you have...

I still have some problems with this one, because Turkey received 10 Blenheims in September 1939, which were flown out. They only operated Mk I Blenheims until November 1942, when three ex RAF Mk IVs were acquired.
The 10 Blenheims delivered in September 1939 were L1483, L1485, L1488, L1489, L1493, L1497, L4821, L4824, L4826, L4828 (every source I can find agrees on these ten). So I conclude that L4824, L4826, L4828 were also Mk Is. This therefore puts L4827 in the frame for also being a Mk I.
Further to that, L4829 also seems to have been a Mark I. See the photo on Page 543 of Warner (Edition 2) – the serial is just about legible.

Finally, looking at your list Jagan:
4 Dec 41 was Z7775: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=Z7775
20 Dec 41 was T2394: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=T2394
22 Dec 41 was Z7915 of 107 Sqn: Warner, page 520
26 Dec 41 was Z7796: http://www.rafcommands.com/database/...php?uniq=Z7796

I have some more anomalies which I will add at a later date.
Andy